Biggest problem facing the profession

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

Cool — Sat, 19 Aug 2017 13:38:17 GMT

A very honest response from Alastair Welch in the sense that it gives a good account of the present reality and I agree with you totally.

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

Cool — Sat, 19 Aug 2017 13:31:08 GMT

Unfortunately I find what Martin experienced is very common in our profession. I had a similar experience before I decided to become a locum. You sometimes get contracts that actually offers paid cpd and all the standard perks but when it comes to implementation the boss who is to approve paying for the cpd suddenly becomes very busy and is not available. all sort of delay tactics then comes into play. In the end I paid for my certificate myself. I sometimes feel that as a profession we don't want to admit that these things happen and are more common than we may want to admit. not all employers are bad. I know some very good ones. Before the corporates came on the scene all this was in our hands and we could have done better in terms of preventing employee frustration but now that the corporates have taken over, it is no longer in our hands. In all fairness the corporates invested for a reason. that reason is called profit and profit they must. a lot goes on people and lets try to listen more to these young guys

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

Tricia Goulden — Sat, 19 Aug 2017 08:06:41 GMT

No I didn't!!! Was chuffed to bits when you made your choice.

The issue facing the profession today is poor management and a tendency towards hierarchical behaviour in traditional practices. Professional HR management with clear career development plans for all staff is rare. Corporates have competent practice management skills and this is the need they are fulfilling.

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 18 Aug 2017 11:09:55 GMT

[quote user="Alastair Welch"]I realise this sounds a bit depressing. I enjoy my work but would I do it again now, doubtful. Will I encourage my children to follow me, definitely not! [/quote]

Tricia Goulden tried and failed to stop me from being a vet.

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

Bob Russell — Thu, 17 Aug 2017 14:37:57 GMT

It is not my place to decide what my children do in their lives. I am allowed to encourage or discourage but must respect their choices.

Had one of them been daft enough to wish to be a vet then they would have had my support despite my misgivings. Thankfully they did not ever show the slightest interest in how they got a roof over them or their food reached their plate!

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

Rob Loxley — Wed, 16 Aug 2017 19:56:16 GMT

[quote user="Alastair Welch"]I am sure that there are multiple causes to the changes of practice ownership (and there is perhaps a generational difference) but I suspect the dramatic and rapid alteration to a female dominated profession is a strong driver[/quote]

Interestingly, 3 new practices that have started up within 10 miles of me in the last 10 years were set up by solo female vets or teams of female vets. Our local JVP (v4p) has recently been sold to 2 female vets.

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

Anthony Todd — Wed, 16 Aug 2017 16:41:35 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Not in a million years would I have encouraged my children to be vets![/quote]

Difference is you don't, and I didn't, need to be encouraged.....

You can't "encourage" a vocation!!

Or look at this: http://www.pprune.org/african-aviation/433420-maun-botswana-essential-guide.html

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

Bob Russell — Wed, 16 Aug 2017 15:41:22 GMT

Not in a million years would I have encouraged my children to be vets!

Eldest son is having the time of his life working in the film industry. Still in a junior role but earning more than an experienced veterinary locum with the promise of much more as his career progresses.

Apparently working with a certain Mr Eddie Murphy at the moment!

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

Anthony Todd — Wed, 16 Aug 2017 11:14:07 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]Out of interest, would any of us? (genuine question!)[/quote]

Yep, no question, no doubt x 100!

Do a poll, factoring in age, Arlo.

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 16 Aug 2017 10:29:41 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]

[quote user="Alastair Welch"] I enjoy my work but would I do it again now, doubtful. Will I encourage my children to follow me, definitely not! [/quote]

Out of interest, would any of us? (genuine question!)

[/quote]

I know i'm usually the glass half full type, but no, I wouldn't :)

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

Stephanie Wellings — Wed, 16 Aug 2017 09:38:56 GMT

[quote user="Harriet Nicholson"]

[quote user="Wren"]

[quote user="Alastair Welch"] I enjoy my work but would I do it again now, doubtful. Will I encourage my children to follow me, definitely not! [/quote]

Out of interest, would any of us? (genuine question!)

[/quote]

Definitely not, even more so with increased debt burden - I even try and put off the work experiences, if you are clever enough to get into vet school look at other better paid or better work life balance options.

[/quote]

I wouldn't discourage someone now applying from going into the profession (although by the time I have kids and they are old enough to go to uni, it may have changed again!)

I would definitely manage expectations re the salary, as unless you love the job it isn't really a sensible financial investment. Unfortunately I think it's hard to convey to a 16 year old how much they WILL care about getting a mortgage and a pension in the future.

There are lots of better paid jobs for people with the grades to go to vet school (or, let's be honest, just lots of better paid jobs full stop - my other half has five GCSEs and makes more than I do). A lot of these jobs though aren't a good equivalent to vetting - they are office based or management, and aren't likely to provide what a lot of prospective vets want out of their careers.

Looking at human medicine - probably an 'alternative career' that many vet applicants consider - compared to doctors I graduated with, I have more choice and flexibility about where I work, when/if I specialise, better work life balance, and a much more fulfilling job - more clinical freedom, better clinical skills, case responsibility, less admin, more kittens.

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

Anthony Todd — Wed, 16 Aug 2017 09:27:15 GMT

[quote user="Harriet Nicholson"]Definitely not, even more so with increased debt burden - I even try and put off the work experiences, if you are clever enough to get into vet school look at other better paid or better work life balance options.[/quote]

This maybe the biggest change.

Back in the day vets were regarded as the thick person's career. If you were bright enough and wanted to go into medical science you went for medicine, then dentistry and the easiest was vetting where you were paid to study.

But all the students I knew, and some were very bright, with top exam results, didn't ever consider "work-life balance" "life style", excess hours, family life, or the extremes of LA work.

Like actors, musicians, pro sportspersons, pilots [paying for their uniforms and lunch at 35000ft], or other "vocational" careers vetting was it; period.

Not so much now, if at all, I fear.

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 16 Aug 2017 09:15:19 GMT

[quote user="Alastair Welch"]The current multiples of EBITA being offered are eye-watering and designed to build market share off the back of cheap borrowing or venture capitalist investment rather than a genuine reflection of current profitability.[/quote]

Al, What do you think will happen apropos debt-fuelled corporates when interest rates rise, which they surely will?

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

Harriet Nicholson — Wed, 16 Aug 2017 08:56:40 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]

[quote user="Alastair Welch"] I enjoy my work but would I do it again now, doubtful. Will I encourage my children to follow me, definitely not! [/quote]

Out of interest, would any of us? (genuine question!)

[/quote]

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

Rob Davis — Wed, 16 Aug 2017 08:45:30 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]Out of interest, would any of us? (genuine question!)[/quote]

I admit to being slightly relieved that none of my four (sorry, Wynne!) children are following in my footsteps. However, two of them appear to be heading towards careers as professional musicians, and I'm not sure that will offer much financial security either!

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

Wren — Wed, 16 Aug 2017 07:41:52 GMT

[quote user="Alastair Welch"] I enjoy my work but would I do it again now, doubtful. Will I encourage my children to follow me, definitely not! [/quote]

Out of interest, would any of us? (genuine question!)

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 16 Aug 2017 07:32:18 GMT

Very well put Al.

And you're right...our valuation was in 2 parts...one number for a private sale and one (much higher) number for a corporate sale. To some extent this is due to the fact that the corporate can make more profit due to their lower costs. However, I have no doubt that the current grabbing of market share has an impact too.

Like you, I talked my children out of the idea of following in our footsteps!

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

Alastair Welch — Wed, 16 Aug 2017 00:45:54 GMT

The diversity of VS within the profession makes a single answer to the question of the 'biggest problem' somewhat meaningless: a VS in their late fifties who owns their own business is probably facing different challenges than a final-year student about to graduate with circa £100k debt. Notwithstanding the above I do think that poor remuneration for younger members of the profession (and the lack of potential in later years) is a serious problem and one which I don't see any immediate solution.

I don't think that being a VS has ever been that well remunerated and the public perception of rich VS is misplaced, but being the owner of a successful business that happens to be a veterinary practice was, and can still be a route to financial success. The recent paradigm shift from an industry made up of countless small owner-run businesses to one where a handful of big players dominate makes this a less likely outcome for the younger portion of our profession, and whilst we can pretend that the money doesn't matter the reality is that VS are no different from the rest of the population- we want to be able to buy a nice house in an area with good schools, take foreign holidays and have a secure and comfortable retirement.

I am sure that there are multiple causes to the changes of practice ownership (and there is perhaps a generational difference) but I suspect the dramatic and rapid alteration to a female dominated profession is a strong driver: we live in a society where (like it or not) the bulk of the care of young children is performed by women, and right about the time when business ownership becomes a possibility children appear and priorities change. Changes to working patterns (part-time, removal of OOH work etc) along with the difficulties associated with accessing affordable childcare make the additional workload associated with ownership more challenging. On an individual basis this has little impact but industry-wide this has opened the door for corporate entities which previously would have struggled.

As a profession we have moved from one where business ownership was expected and desired to one where it is less attractive. At some point a critical mass was reached which altered the structure of the profession: the appearance of dedicated OOH provision, the 'lock-up' shop with cheap up-front prices based on pet food sales, parasite prophylaxis and stinging the client with a 'distress purchase' and the over-priced referral institutions built off the golden goose of pet-insurance.

I do not agree with Gillian Mostyn that the buy-in price of practices simply reflect the expected financial return. The current multiples of EBITA being offered are eye-watering and designed to build market share off the back of cheap borrowing or venture capitalist investment rather than a genuine reflection of current profitability. The figures involved take buy-ins beyond the reach of most assistant VS as this will probably be usecured borrowing cf Gillian's multiple mortgages and whilst the option of a stand-alone start up remains we should be realistic that starting a veterinary practice now (in the face of vaccination for life, internet pharmacies and a large student debt/higher marginal rate of tax is substantially more challenging than it used to be. We have clearly gone beyond the tipping point and anyone who currently owns a practice and doesn't sell to a corporate is the odd ones out.

Perhaps I shouldn't complain. I have been fortunate enough to become a co-owner of a successful business and in all probability I'll cash my chips with the Big-Box-Mart in due course however we can sell the family silver but once and I suppose I feel that generations below me have been sold a bit of a pup. I'm not sure I have any answers and I hesitate to apportion 'blame' but over many years the College has been slow at recognising the malign influence corporatisation has had on the well-being of VS and I suppose the poorly handled enquiry into 24/7 care was their last chance to get a handle on big business: if it were less easy for large corporate structures to avoid the costs associated with providing genuinely high quality 24/7 service then the lock-ups would be less attractive and the whole structure of our profession would change.

I realise this sounds a bit depressing. I enjoy my work but would I do it again now, doubtful. Will I encourage my children to follow me, definitely not!

Al Welch

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

patrick murphy — Tue, 15 Aug 2017 14:34:25 GMT

good luck. I am the weird one that left Canada to work here. not to generalise but I feel that I have had a work/life balance in my career that is far and away better than the few Canadian friends that I have left. they seem to live to work. the only one that I knew that really coined it worked by himself, like a dog, in Labrador, so he deserved it.when I went for my 25 reunion, 2 of my very close school friends, both owners of large clinics, were taking their first ever holiday of more than 1 week.a lot of them took early retirement as they could not maintain the pace. again good luck.

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

Anthony Dennison — Tue, 15 Aug 2017 13:07:53 GMT

It sounds to me, Martin, that you have been quite unfortunate in your first job and found somewhere that isn't suitable for you. You've decided to move jobs, but in an extreme way involving moving to a different continent!

Being expected to consult all day and not get paid CPD time is ridiculous. I can't quite believe that you don't have a CPD allowance, both financial and a number of days to take for it.

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 15 Aug 2017 13:01:34 GMT

[quote user="Stephanie Fursland"]For me the main negative is that due to the trend to specialise and the availability of referral, that 'first opinion', especially as a junior vet, can be quite dull and you can feel that all the interesting things are referred - after all, none of us went into this thinking we were going to be millionaires, but we all went in wanting a job that was exciting, rewarding and varied[/quote]

I think this is very true - and perhaps explains why there is a drop off in those wanting to buy in to partnership. It is still held up, to an extent, as the pinnacle of achievement in general practice; however, there is not automatically a change in the type of work you do as a partner compared to as an associate (apart from the addition of management/ HR tasks!). For some people running the business may be reward in itself, but there are others that may have different ambitions not served by ownership (often dismissed as a 'lack of ambition')

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 15 Aug 2017 12:58:14 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

[quote user="Martin Hamilton"]I'm not saying there shouldn't be some element of sacrifice, but this was taking holiday time to come in to work (a non-referral clinic) and basically stand and watch your boss do some work for a few hours.[/quote]

Watching your boss is learning how to do it. So it is CPD time. And a few hours/day of watching and being paid for it... hm, in utopia maybe?

[/quote]

I can see this from both sides - yes, learning a technique from anyone who can already do it is valuable CPD. However, is the clinic really not able to juggle things around/ blank off a morning of consults in order to invest in their employee's development (by encouraging them to learn a technique that they will then be able to perform and generate fees for the practice)? I guess if they don't fund any CPD then perhaps the answer is already there...

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

Malcolm Ness — Tue, 15 Aug 2017 10:16:43 GMT

[quote user="Martin Hamilton"] and basically stand and watch your boss do some work for a few hours[/quote]

I have had several bosses over the years and I have learnt considerably from all of them. In my experience, one of the best ways to learn is basically to stand and watch and chat about what she or he is doing.

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

Dinu Catilina — Mon, 14 Aug 2017 22:23:18 GMT

Watching your boss is learning how to do it. So it is CPD time. And a few hours/day of watching and being paid for it... hm, in utopia maybe?

[quote user="Martin Hamilton"]Wait, people get paid time off for CPD?[/quote]

Yes, standard contract. And guess what, you can get paid CPD as well. And even more, you can get more than what's normally offered (which is about 1000/year?) if you fight for it. Applying for a job is a sale, don't sell yourself cheap.

RE: Biggest problem facing the profession

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 14 Aug 2017 22:20:11 GMT

[quote user="Martin Hamilton"]Wait, people get paid time off for CPD? I already have to take it out of my 20 days of holiday.[/quote]

Seriously??

Yes...I've never worked anywhere where CPD wasn't encouraged and funded in full. (Including attending the NAVC in Orlando for a week, with hotel paid for, although I paid the flights as I had a week of holiday afterwards too!)

It really does sound like you've got a sh1tty job!