Laura Muir

RE: Laura Muir

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 10 Aug 2017 09:08:06 GMT

Back to the OP: Laura is competing in the 5000 metres heats scheduled 6.30 pm this evening.

RE: Laura Muir

Wren — Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:35:31 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]how would you deal gender change individuals. As far a I'm aware there are none competing in elite level sport [/quote]

Lauren Jeska? Although no longer competing, as currently a guest of Her Majesty.

Trans and intersex are not the same thing....although I don't think anyone who has, or has had, testes should be competing in women's sport.

[/quote]

Schuyler Bailar? US swimmer.

RE: Laura Muir

Virginia Campbell — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 21:59:13 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]how would you deal gender change individuals. As far a I'm aware there are none competing in elite level sport [/quote]

Lauren Jeska? Although no longer competing, as currently a guest of Her Majesty.

Trans and intersex are not the same thing....although I don't think anyone who has, or has had, testes should be competing in women's sport.

RE: Laura Muir

Bibs — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 16:19:03 GMT

I don't really see what the problem is. She isn't cheating. She is a woman. We all have different variations.

Also the people in the Guinness book for records for being the tallest generally do have a hormonal problem.

RE: Laura Muir

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 15:31:10 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]- I probably have an inbuilt 1.8% advantage over the average woman wanting to be a pro basketball or volleyball player purely because I have the biological advantage of being exceptionally tall.[/quote]I have an inbuilt genetic advantage because my father was an Olympic 1500 metres runner. This has gifted me an athletic build with a high power to weight ratio and a resting heart rate of 38 at my fittest. However these are not unusual attributes for athletes, indeed they're quite normal, it's what gives us an advantage over non-athletic types. Caster Semenya's condition is not normal, it gives her a unique advantage in events that suit her physiologically albeit the fact that she did not win the 1500 shows that, despite this advantage, she is probably not as athletic as the women who beat her. If she was she would be virtually unbeatable. Its like someone with hypersomatotrophism competing for the tallest man contest it almost becomes a freak show. This is not her fault and she can do nothing about it which makes it all the more difficult to resolve the issue.

RE: Laura Muir

Wren — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 12:41:41 GMT

I don't *think* that anyone is worried that she is doping. Not now, anyway. But I think that they are worried that her naturally elevated testosterone puts her at an advantage compared to other woman with more average testosterone levels. Someone quantified it (I have no idea how!) as a 1.8% advantage. Which, in a 1500m race is 27m, or 4.14 seconds in a race run at world record pace.

The problem, as above, has been twofold - the horrific and public way her medical issues have been dealt with, both by the sport and by the media; and the fact that there is literally no way of solving this conundrum. Biological passports may be able to help long term to identify normals for individual athletes, but aren't going to be able to solve the problem of how to let someone compete who theoretically (allegedly) has an inbuilt 1.8% advantage. On the other hand, no-one ever said sport was fair - I probably have an inbuilt 1.8% advantage over the average woman wanting to be a pro basketball or volleyball player purely because I have the biological advantage of being exceptionally tall.

RE: Laura Muir

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 12:15:06 GMT

[quote user="Edward Jones"]Is there any way to differentiate a naturally elevated testosterone from that due to an exogenous source (i.e. doping)?[/quote]In one word - yes. Floyd Landis tested positive when he 'won' the Tour de France in 2006 (he was subsequently stripped of the title). It is something to do with the ratio of testosterone:epitestosterone in synthetic testosterone being different to that naturally occurring as well as there being a cut off for maximum values in male athletes. He used a testosterone patch the night before he won a mountain stage on his own by minutes and must have been aware he'd be tested even though it would have been eliminated from his body within hours. Doh.

RE: Laura Muir

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 11:03:37 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]What is it with the Brits this year and their tactics?, half of Laura Muir's problem was her tactics. Why did Kyle Langford leave his effort so late last night in the 800 - he overtook the entire field bar the medalists in the last 100 metres and was closing fast on them. If he'd started just a few metres earlier he'd have had a medal for sure, possibly gold.[/quote]

I imagine it must be very difficult to know exactly when to put on that last minute burst, without running the risk of burning yourself out. Requires a very detailed knowledge of not only your own abilities but also those of all your opponents

RE: Laura Muir

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 11:01:30 GMT

[quote user="Edward Jones"]

Is there any way to differentiate a naturally elevated testosterone from that due to an exogenous source (i.e. doping)?

Is that part of the controversy - that these are basically underhand accusations of doping?

[/quote]

I don't think there is a way to differentiate between natural elevation and exogenous sources, so the problem is trying to find a way to allow for the natural variations whilst still testing for, and controlling doping.

[quote user="Edward Jones"]Is that part of the controversy - that these are basically underhand accusations of doping?[/quote]

I don't think there have been accusations that Semenya has been doping particularly. The controversy has been more that there have been cries of "it's not fair" from certain corners - including some other athletes, and also that her personal medical 'problem'/ conversations/ records etc were very unsympathetically 'outed'. There's also the all-too-familiar appearance-related comments/ sneering from certain sections of the media, but that's really a separate issue.

RE: Laura Muir

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 09:55:53 GMT

What is it with the Brits this year and their tactics?, half of Laura Muir's problem was her tactics. Why did Kyle Langford leave his effort so late last night in the 800 - he overtook the entire field bar the medalists in the last 100 metres and was closing fast on them. If he'd started just a few metres earlier he'd have had a medal for sure, possibly gold.

And did anyone witness the disgraceful sustained challenge of the commentary team on the representative from Public Health England over the decision to bar Makwala from the 400 final. She had clearly and repeatedly expressed the reasons why the IAAF had made that decision on the basis of evidence from medical professionals that he had Norovirus and they didn't want it spread further but they would not give up challenging her. It became embarrassing in the end.

RE: Laura Muir

Edward Jones — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 09:47:06 GMT

Could someone inform this ignorant bystander, please?

Is there any way to differentiate a naturally elevated testosterone from that due to an exogenous source (i.e. doping)?

Is that part of the controversy - that these are basically underhand accusations of doping?

RE: Laura Muir

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 08 Aug 2017 14:19:28 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]I'm not at all comfortable with this wording. I know that you don't mean to be offensive[/quote]It was very difficult to word it without being offensive apart from ignoring the fact completely but to a large extent I did it to cause a reaction and open a discussion on this matter.

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]I think some consideration needs to be shown towards the very unpleasant attitudes and reactions towards Semenya, which appear to be rooted in and veering towards transphobia (for want of a better categorisation). The role of testosterone and the overlaps between 'doping' levels and natural variations is by no means clear cut and the IAAF's gender policy is problematic. [/quote]As Michael Johnson said last night, there is probably no way to resolve this because if this is the way she was born and if she is anatomically/chromosonally a woman then she should be allowed to compete unhindered. It is unfortunate for those women who do not have naturally high testosterone but they may have a higher natural PCV or larger hearts, or a better lactate tolerance or a better mix of slow and fast twitch muscles whatever: as you suggest later, athletic gifts have never been handed out evenly.

However this does not address true transgenders. If someone is truly transgender if they're forced to perform as a male they will be at a disadvantage just as much as an advantage if they compete as a woman. Maybe there should be a transgender games same as para-games. And how would you deal gender change individuals. As far a I'm aware there are none competing in elite level sport but it could open the door to athletes deliberately undergoing gender change just to gain an advantage.

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]I certainly find the idea that she might be forced to pursue hormone treatment solely to remain eligible to compete concerning[/quote]It is as abhorrent as homosexual men being forced to take hormone therapy to avoid going to jail in the past when being openly homosexual was considered a crime - the idea is nauseating in fact.

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]I may be influenced by the fact that I compete in a sport that has a very inclusive gender policy. However, it is a team sport, less dependent on individual physical strength,[/quote]I used to play mixed hockey at school and uni and I can assure you that the women were at no disadvantage when wielding a big stick!

RE: Laura Muir

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 08 Aug 2017 12:27:19 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] just lost out on a bronze to a man very controversial figure with abnormally high testosterone levels. [/quote]

Not wanting to derail the thread away from Laura's fantastic achievement, but I'm not at all comfortable with this wording. I know that you don't mean to be offensive, but I think some consideration needs to be shown towards the very unpleasant attitudes and reactions towards Semenya, which appear to be rooted in and veering towards transphobia (for want of a better categorisation). The role of testosterone and the overlaps between 'doping' levels and natural variations is by no means clear cut and the IAAF's gender policy is problematic. You might find the following article interesting:

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/100/3/828/2839059/Women-With-Hyperandrogenism-in-Elite-Sports

I certainly find the idea that she might be forced to pursue hormone treatment solely to remain eligible to compete concerning (assuming that there is no other health benefit to her by doing so). There's an argument that being particularly good at sport is to a certain extent an accident of genetics (enhanced of course by training and very hard work and dedication).

I may be influenced by the fact that I compete in a sport that has a very inclusive gender policy. However, it is a team sport, less dependent on individual physical strength, and one in which you can choose to be part of a co-ed team
https://wftda.com/wftda-gender-statement/

RE: Laura Muir

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 08 Aug 2017 10:29:59 GMT

Sadly just lost out on a bronze to a man very controversial figure with abnormally high testosterone levels. Very close and only beaten by world record holders/Olympic champions and then because she didn't get her tactics quite right. Still she is young and will improve.

RE: Laura Muir

Lucy Fleming — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 16:13:16 GMT

Thanks Martin - I caught the end of her heat but keep missing it otherwise!