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Martin Atkinson — Thu, 10 Aug 2017 12:04:38 GMT

I've just received my copy of the local Catholic Church diary in which I advertise (incidentally I support the C of E church as well). I do this not because I think any business will come my way but to support the local community.

Does this mean: a) I will enter the Kingdom of Heaven; b) still go to purgatory for being a hypocrite?

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Wren — Thu, 10 Aug 2017 08:44:46 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]which regularly advertised themselves as an 'Evangelical Christian Practice'[/quote]

I think that sums it up! Beware the practice which has to regularly advertise for staff.

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lisashaul — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 21:12:58 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]Yes I agree that would be discrimination. I was thinking more of a practice where the owner veterinarian practiced according to their faith and advertised that fact to clients. However, they would have to have no employees in order to avoid discrimination I think![/quote]

It is a curious one, and I too remember those adverts.

My understanding of the Equalities Act (as a Union rep in my previous job), is that, in certain cases discrimination in hiring against protected characteristics (as defined under the Act such as age, marital status, disability and religion to name but 4 of them) is allowed under circumstances if it can be justified (to a Tribunal and the Appeals Court) as required for the job.

For example, the appointments committee of a Methodist Church could require that any prospective Minister they appoint be, in fact, a practising Methodist.

There may be certain circumstances in which a Muslim community service hiring for a worker to only work with strictly observant Muslim women could justify restricting the hire to a female.

There are well known minimum age restrictions on certain jobs (bar work etc).

And disability discrimination in hiring can be applied in a few positions (eg uncontrolled epileptics could be refused a job as an HGV driver, or a very small business with a role requiring great physical activity might be able to justify that they could not afford the multiple adjustments required to employ a severely physically disabled worker for that role).

So, whilst your average practice owned and run by Evangelical Christians couldn't discriminate in their hiring practices against non-believers, they could however (like a Church of England primary school or a Catholic school) advertise that they have a particular faith foundation and could also probably be considered reasonable in expecting some ethical or moral sympathy towards that in their prospective employees.

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Lucy Fleming — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 17:22:46 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Further to my previous post, I now recall that the 'Evangelical Christian Practice' which advertised stated in their advert that they were seeking 'graduates with a similar belief'. While clients of similar persuasion may like this its still discrimination.[/quote]

Yes I agree that would be discrimination. I was thinking more of a practice where the owner veterinarian practiced according to their faith and advertised that fact to clients. However, they would have to have no employees in order to avoid discrimination I think!

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Martin Atkinson — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 17:18:39 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]

[quote user="J G Wray"]As a veterinary surgeon, a regulated professional person backed by an Act of Parliament, rather than something like a life coach does anyone advertise the religious beliefs of their practice?[/quote]

Not that I am aware of, but I see no reason why they shouldn't. I admit I can't think of any specific ways that it can impact on treatment of animals, but I come from a place of quite profound ignorance of the intricacies of the Christian faith. Some pet owners might like to see a veterinarian that shares their religious faith, others might for whatever reason be vehemently against seeing a practitioner of that faith. they are then free to vote with their feet. I suspect the net effect would be neutral.

[/quote]Further to my previous post, I now recall that the 'Evangelical Christian Practice' which advertised stated in their advert that they were seeking 'graduates with a similar belief'. While clients of similar persuasion may like this its still discrimination.

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Lucy Fleming — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 17:09:17 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Why mention it unless or until it becomes part of the coaching toolbox, during the "therapy"?[/quote]

I presume because a certain number of people are looking for coaching including this particular aspect, and it would be helpful for them to know which coaches offer it because, as you go on to state...

[quote user="J G Wray"]Imagine the proposal from a secular coach which included a line like "I provide coaching on a secular basis" Would that be more inclusive? Probably, but it's just as unnecessary[/quote]

...secular coaching is probably the 'norm' and faith-based coaching the exception - so why not advertise that you offer it?

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Francisco Gomez — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 11:58:18 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

does anyone advertise the religious beliefs of their practice?

[/quote]

can a practice have a religious belief? I'd guess this would concern only individuals.

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Martin Atkinson — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 11:55:49 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]does anyone advertise the religious beliefs of their practice?[/quote]I don't know if they still do it but I recall back in the day when I took an interest in the job adverts in the Veterinary Record, there was one practice which regularly advertised themselves as an 'Evangelical Christian Practice', presumably wishing vets of a similar persuasion would apply. I'm not sure what discrimination laws would have to say about that.

I know I backed you up after your original replies in this thread but I think you are making a bit of a storm in a teacup.

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J G Wray — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 11:48:00 GMT

Why mention it unless or until it becomes part of the coaching toolbox, during the "therapy"?

Imagine the proposal from a secular coach which included a line like "I provide coaching on a secular basis" Would that be more inclusive? Probably, but it's just as unnecessary.

As a veterinary surgeon, a regulated professional person backed by an Act of Parliament, rather than something like a life coach does anyone advertise the religious beliefs of their practice?

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Lucy Fleming — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 11:19:22 GMT

[quote user="lisashaul"]I don't want to cause offence, and I don't want to confuse people. Neither is helpful.[/quote]

Just to give you a different perspective, I didn't find it confusing It seemed clear to me that Christian coaching (which I presumed, rightly or wrongly to be similar to your other offerings, but taking in to account someone's Christian faith and how they wanted that to apply to the way they lived their life) was only one of the things you offer, and that the others did not have reference to religious faith (ie that one did not have to be a Christian to take you up on your offer)

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Martin Atkinson — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 18:17:19 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]ahem[/quote]Should that be amen?!

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Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 17:04:19 GMT

lisashaul

[quote user="lisashaul"](the functionality of this forum and messaging system are great)[/quote]

Thank you :)

Can I introduce you to a couple of other features:

When replying to someone, you'll see a button marked 'quote' above the reply box. Click that to transpose their post into your reply, making it clearer who you are replying to (or you can just highlight, with your mouse, just that bit of their post you are replying to, and it will just transpose the highlighted text).

Also, when replying to someone specifically, if you type the 'at' symbol, it brings up a list of usernames. If you select the right one, it will create an alert that they have been mentioned.

I edited your post and did both of these things to show what I mean.

[quote user="lisashaul"]I was a bit upset by JG Wray's post to start with[/quote]

I think that is almost a rite of passage at VetSurgeon.org. But you're through that particular hurdle now, and seemingly out safely the other side. Welcome!

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J G Wray — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 16:54:30 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="lisashaul"]I was a bit upset by JG Wray's post[/quote]

Welcome to vetsurgeon.org.

[/quote]

ahem

[quote user="lisashaul"]I was a bit upset by JG Wray's post to start with, but he's given me very detailed feedback via private messaging, [/quote]

Feedback is a gift

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lisashaul — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 16:40:52 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

Hi Lisa,

I would be interested to overcome a particular obstacle I am facing at this moment, can I contact you in some way other than this forum?

Mariette[/quote]

mariette asselbergs I've messaged you... (the functionality of this forum and messaging system are great)

RE: Could you benefit from coaching to overcome confidence issues, turn dreams into action, build your business? - Free coaching available from student coach.

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 16:35:14 GMT

[quote user="lisashaul"]I was a bit upset by JG Wray's post[/quote]

Welcome to vetsurgeon.org.

RE: Could you benefit from coaching to overcome confidence issues, turn dreams into action, build your business? - Free coaching available from student coach.

mariette asselbergs — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 16:33:18 GMT

Hi Lisa,

I would be interested to overcome a particular obstacle I am facing at this moment, can I contact you in some way other than this forum?

Mariette

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lisashaul — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 16:25:41 GMT

Wow, my lack of knowledge of social media posting has really tripped me up on this one.

All I am trying to do is this:- I need a few more practice clients as I complete my training, for whom I can provide free coaching, and hopefully it will be good and useful coaching.

I provide perfectly straightforward 'secular' coaching for the vast majority of my practice clients - to be used in solving work based problems, developing your career, work-life balance issues, turning dreams into actions and generally getting off the hamster wheel and living an intentional life.

I'm also starting to train as a small business coach - so would love to have some practice clients that are involved in running their own business - be it veterinary or other.

In addition, for those coming from a Christian faith based position (I myself am a Quaker), I have also been training in an approach to life coaching that explicitly allows the client to review, plan and create the intentional life from within the lens and grounding of their faith.

I was a bit upset by JG Wray's post to start with, but he's given me very detailed feedback via private messaging, and I'm learning that I need to be even more careful (than I thought I was) in how I word things. - I don't want to cause offence, and I don't want to confuse people. Neither is helpful.

So, in summary, I would really love a few more people to coach, of all stripes, faiths and none. Coaching works and I want to work as coach part-time, and I need the challenge and joy of practice clients so that I can learn to be a great coach.

Many thanks

Lisa

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Martin Atkinson — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 16:09:37 GMT

[quote user="louise nixon"]I'm a little confused, JG Wray. Are you joking? Cos your comment doesn't look like a joke.[/quote]I can't see the joke. The confusion is in what difference is there between a life coach and Christian life coach (or for that matter a Muslim/Sikh/Buddhist whatever life coach). Do those with a religious life have a better life than the bog standard one? I personally have a pretty good Atheist life!

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J G Wray — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 16:02:52 GMT

[quote user="louise nixon"]I'm a little confused, JG Wray. Are you joking?[/quote]

Sorry you're confused.

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louise nixon — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 14:52:47 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="lisashaul"]So I am nearly qualified as a ..... Christian life coach,[/quote]

Spoilt it

[/quote]

I'm a little confused, JG Wray. Are you joking? Cos your comment doesn't look like a joke.

RE: Could you benefit from coaching to overcome confidence issues, turn dreams into action, build your business? - Free coaching available from student coach.

J G Wray — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 08:45:14 GMT

[quote user="lisashaul"]So I am nearly qualified as a ..... Christian life coach,[/quote]

Spoilt it