Radical rota changes

RE: Radical rota changes

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 08 Aug 2017 12:08:19 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]I hope your vets appreciate your enthusiasm towards giving them better conditions and I hope it all works out for you. [/quote]

Couldn't agree more. It sounds like you are doing a very good thing! I don't think anyone should be working a standard 50 hour week anymore!

Unfortunately, I would also agree with Clare that you're unlikely to get much appreciation from some employees, no matter what you do. When the novelty wears off...the complaining will start ...

A reduction in staff hours will usually mean that have less staff in the building every day. That is fine, and workloads are busy but manageable, until someone is on holiday or ill. Don't decrease hours etc unless you are SURE it is understood that people may have to work increased hours to cover absence. In my experience, this is the tough bit. I reduced my full time vets to a 3 1/2 day week, and less weekend work, but with the expectation that they would work more hours if it became necessary for cover. Their salary was unchanged. It is, however, difficult to get people to work more than what they think of as their 'set hours', regardless of what has been previously agreed. Also, you need to think about whether you will pay overtime or employ locums for this extra cover. If you will, a pay cut is probably needed.

I do hope you can make it work for you ... just make sure you're not increasing your own stress and workload too much in improving the QOL of your employees.

RE: Radical rota changes

Wren — Tue, 08 Aug 2017 08:41:53 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]So at the risk of sounding like some sort of show-off benevolent boss, what I've been thinking of is just reducing from 5d to 4d, but keeping the same hours. We live in a fairly rural area and don't have any desire to open late, as we all genuinely highly value life outside work, that's why we live in this area. I feel that productivity on the other 4 days would likely increase, hopefully maintaining turnover. That's the scary part though, what happens if we do it and turnover drops 15%?! It likely won't, but I think those are the kinds of conversations we'd need to have with the assistants. I also don't really have a clue what to do about salary. [/quote]

Your situation sounds incredibly similar to the one we were in - rural, no particularly long hours. Our boss had a frank chat with us and explained that it was a trial, that certainly initially we would have no contractual 'right' to have the extra day off (that was already the case with our half days) but that we would receive the same wages as before and not be routinely required to work any more hours on the other days (although obviously in mixed practice finishing times can always be a little unpredictable). However all this was conditional on us maintaining our turnover. As I said before, turnover was actually increased.

RE: Radical rota changes

Rob Loxley — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 22:46:14 GMT

[quote user="Nicola M"]

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

4 day weeks are commonplace now

[/quote]

Really? I didn't realise they were!

What kind of on call rota do you have? Unless the on call rota is onerous, or the daytime shifts are very long then I'd be surprised if 4 day weeks were commonplace (I'm not saying you're wrong but I just find it surprising!)

[/quote]

A quick scout of the 1st page of 20 jobs advertised on this site has 4 that specify (just in the ad) a 4-day week, and of the other 16, 2 are not general practice vet jobs. So on a tiny survey, over 20%?
Obviously OOH, saturdays, weekends, length of weekdays etc are all variables to consider

RE: Radical rota changes

Nicola Cole — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 22:20:06 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

4 day weeks are commonplace now

[/quote]

Really? I didn't realise they were!

Are your appointments/ops lists/ visit lists fully booked most of the time? If they are then unless you're going to increase length of working day then you will need to employ extra people to cover the workload. If the lists aren't fully booked then you should beable to alter appointment/visit/op slots to create a 4 day week. So very much depends on how booked up the practice is.

RE: Radical rota changes

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 21:57:59 GMT

I hope your vets appreciate your enthusiasm towards giving them better conditions and I hope it all works out for you.

At the risk of sounding cynical , in my experience a reduction in salary will never be received well and a freeze would be the most you could hope for if turnover fell which is doubtful or you needed more staff.

From my observations over the years I would predict that some vets will really appreciate your generosity and some will be neutral, and their new work conditions and reduced hours will not appear to make them happier overall. I have seen vets go from full time to part time and still be miserable and complain about their workload after the novelty had worn off. i don't want to rain on your parade and I applaud you as a good employer , I just hope you are not disappointed and that your vets are great and appreciate you

RE: Radical rota changes

Rob Loxley — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 19:23:52 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]what happens if we do it and turnover drops 15%?![/quote]

What makes you think that pets will get less ill or need less preventative healthcare if you alter the vets rota, as long as you are able (enough hours in the working day) to increase productivity - eg not run out of appointment and op slots or have enough time to give good service

RE: Radical rota changes

An On MRCVS — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 18:16:06 GMT

So at the risk of sounding like some sort of show-off benevolent boss, what I've been thinking of is just reducing from 5d to 4d, but keeping the same hours. We live in a fairly rural area and don't have any desire to open late, as we all genuinely highly value life outside work, that's why we live in this area. I feel that productivity on the other 4 days would likely increase, hopefully maintaining turnover. That's the scary part though, what happens if we do it and turnover drops 15%?! It likely won't, but I think those are the kinds of conversations we'd need to have with the assistants. I also don't really have a clue what to do about salary. If turnover stays the same (or goes up...) then we wouldn't need to worry, but do we ask the vets to take a salary reduction for dropping 20% of their working week? That would certainly make it easier to hire a few more vets/nurses to help if each working day became more intense. Although I think by replacing half and full days off in lieu of weekends this might mitigate that increased intensity. The other intended benefit to us is that I think it will make it even harder for our vets to leave.

Thank you all for your input, any more opinions gratefully received. I feel encouraged that we can make it work, and quite excited!

RE: Radical rota changes

Stephanie Wellings — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 13:32:02 GMT

I love working a four day week (full time hours, over 4 days). It means three full days off where I can have a lie in, no worries about half day overrunning, easy to take a few days away without taking holiday - a whole day off is infinitely better than two half days! I am more productive because I am happy to focus completely on work when I'm working, and have even gone in on a day off to learn/perform the odd surgery if required, which I don't resent because I feel like I get enough time off to have a life.

The long days do mean that there's not much of an evening left by the time you get home, which I can live with, but can be difficult for others (e.g makes it a lot more difficult if you have to organise childcare).

RE: Radical rota changes

Clive Ansell — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 12:27:38 GMT

If I were given the choice I would rather work the same hours over 4 rather than 5 days, particularly if the extra day off was a Friday or Monday to give a long weekend.

I once had a 2 week locum. T&C's agreed and booked. The practice emailed me at the 11th hour to inform me I was working 4 days a week instead of the agreed 5, longer hours ( 8-8 instead of 9-6) for the same pre agreed daily rate, so I would be working roughly same hours for 4/5 of the agreed fee - quickly told them to find another locum!

RE: Radical rota changes

Wren — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 12:23:41 GMT

Yes. We did it in my last (mixed) practice. Best thing they ever did. We didn't work crazy hours anyway - pretty much everyone except the person who was doing evening surgery (we each had one per week to do) would be finished by 5.30pm. We were supposed to have a half day each week, but subject to the usual problems - either you were still working at 3pm, or you'd find someone refusing to take on a call at 11am in case it ended up running into their half day. So the boss said that we could have a full day off every week instead of a half day, provided we maintained our turnover.

In actual fact turnover increased. I wasn't privy to the numbers, but every single person was more productive. We didn't work any extra hours, just made better use of them. And everyone was much, much happier.

I was the only vet doing TB testing, so my day off was a Wednesday which fitted perfectly into the testing schedule.

I would definitely avoid having the day off following a night on call though. I have had 7.30am calvings/caesars that I haven't got back from until 11am, or early morning colics that have needed a couple of revisits throughout the day, which is a nightmare if it's supposed to be your day off.

RE: Radical rota changes

Martin Hamilton — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 12:08:03 GMT

We did the opposite, going from a 4 day week to 5 days a week, more hours/same pay, people left. The hours worked per day was meant to decrease, which is why people voted for that system, but in reality everyone works the same hours as they used to but for an extra day per week.

I cannot see a problem with going to a 4 day week, I can't imagine anyone in their right mind would complain about more days off...

RE: Radical rota changes

An On MRCVS — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 09:35:00 GMT

I will focus on a few smaller points, we are looking at changes at the moment and the inter-staff debates are full of incorrect assumptions and half empty glasses!

firstly, change scares people. we made the mistake of letting people know we had something in mind but were clear we had no fixed plan and wanted their thoughts. they read the word plan and assumed they were about to be bull dozed. Face to face with people to discuss the thoughts needs to be early.

for vet vs nurse vs lay staff, look at the working hours. are they doing the same at the moment or is it same number of days but different total hours?

our vets are on 5 days a week 8-6.30, nurses work a 5d week split shift on 2w cycle at 37 ish hours a week average and reception 4 day week. we know all changes are independent as hours already vary, but changing the total hours is hardest.

the first big question for me is are you taking away 20% of their working week, or squashing their current hours into less days?

I guess vets will be happy with less hours and days for same pay, but will be less happy with longer days even if there is less of them based on people resisting change.

I don't envy you unless it is a 20% time cut!

RE: Radical rota changes

Rob Loxley — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 13:51:32 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]4 day weeks are commonplace now[/quote]

In France

[/quote]

In the UK 'compressed hours' are commonplace. Many vets do 4x 12 hour days, for instance.

RE: Radical rota changes

J G Wray — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 13:11:30 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]Does anyone out there have any experience of switching an entire practice of vets from 5 days a week to 4? [/quote]

Is this France?

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I have been thinking a lot about trying to do it in our practice recently as I feel very strongly about providing a good work-life balance for our staff[/quote]

This is France

[quote user="An On MRCVS"] and I think there is good evidence now that it's possible to reduce working hours and not reduce productivity[/quote]

Nope, not France

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]4 day weeks are commonplace now[/quote]

In France

[quote user="An On MRCVS"] I'm interested in the logistics of it all.[/quote]

Parlez-vous francais?

[It's a joke, sort of]

Profit can be taken as money or time. Offer everyone profit in the form of time and you'll quickly see who has personal views/needs are aligned with yours and those who need/want your money. It might be as well to establish clearly in your employees mind the ironclad link between personal turnover and salary first.

RE: Radical rota changes

Iain Richards — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 12:45:29 GMT

Cool, mixed practice!!

So I'll assume you have a half day? Which no-one gets anyway. So dong a day off every two weeks instead of the half day will have no impact except a positive one as they all do get the day off.

Personally I'd employ the extra vet (I know a new grad desperate for a mixed practice - PM me) and the rested vets will work better, forget booking less often and have more time for proper chargeable work than TB work). I'd be confident enough to back it with a new grad salary myself, but I have an MGB to rebuild so nothing doing!

RE: Radical rota changes

Eilidh Corr — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 09:58:00 GMT

And yes, everyone was absolutely totally and utterly on board with it. Wholeheartedly. And none of us would go back.

RE: Radical rota changes

Eilidh Corr — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 09:56:37 GMT

It was so long ago I can't remember but it may have been in place of an overdue pay rise.

RE: Radical rota changes

An On MRCVS — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 09:47:14 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]If you think it will improve working conditions, then just do it, as it probably will![/quote]

This is what I keep coming back to - I just have a strong feeling that it will make the staff a lot happier (not that they aren't happy now) and will improve motivation and help staff retention. We have 18 vets, and are a mixed practice, so it will be slightly complicated with regards to TB testing and the different branches, but it does mean we probably have a slight surplus of vet time during the day/week, which should mean it's possible if everyone steps it up slightly on their 4 days, or we could take on an extra vet or two if turnover didn't take a big hit. It would just require someone to keep a really close eye on the rota and diaries, but that should be the case anyway really.

[quote user="Eilidh Corr"] we were given the option of all working less and a pay adjustment[/quote]

So you all took a pay cut? Was everyone on board with that?

RE: Radical rota changes

Eilidh Corr — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 20:51:11 GMT

My practice went to a 4 day week years ago (IIRC when we lost the contract to provide an OV to the local slaughterhouse we were given the option of all working less and a pay adjustment). It works well - the day off follows your night of first on call so allowing recovery time, although a call out can screw up any plans for the early morning. We do work very long days anyway here but the weekday off is essential and nobody would go back - especially since I work 1 in 3 weekends, I need it to recover!

RE: Radical rota changes

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 20:26:45 GMT

Not quite a tangent...

[quote user="Jill Butterworth"] day we had 10 min consultations from 8 am to 8pm exhausting ...[/quote]

That is just chuffing ridiculous, stupid, bad medicine and a lousy service to the clients.

RE: Radical rota changes

Iain Richards — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 19:03:58 GMT

Look at it mathematically. Can the existing staff do the same work with the reduction? How many vets by the way? Does the 5 day week involve weekends/nights/very late (ie after 6.30) surgeries?

If you think it will improve working conditions, then just do it, as it probably will!

RE: Radical rota changes

Jill Butterworth — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 11:51:56 GMT

I experienced this many years ago when the practice I worked at was bought out by a neighbouring practice nearly. it's nearly 20 years ago, I can't remember all the detail, but we kept the same/similar hours worked overall by doing 4 long days days and I found the day we had 10 min consultations from 8 am to 8pm exhausting ...

Management of change is a whole MBA subject... I would strongly suggest you involve all the staff at the discussion stage, as major changes like this can provoke a lot of disruptive grumbles and disputes. Some will be on board, some just say no, without thinking, so in theory, if you let the people who it affects come up with solutions, they are more likely to cheerfully implement things.

One brilliant technique from Alan Robinson is the 'continuous improvement cards'. Staff write their moans, sorry challenges, on a card, to be discussed at regularly scheduled meetings with all the stakeholders and the decisions/outcomes to be implemented recorded. This reduces (or even prevents) staff grumbling as they know their view will be considered.