Practice disciplinaries ...

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 19 Feb 2018 14:47:22 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]the infamous occasion she sent in her boyfriend to beat me up.[/quote]

Please tell me you have a CCTV recording of this?

[/quote]Sadly not, he stormed trough reception and a consulting room into my office. Not even a witness as the other nurse on duty hid out the back because she was scared when she heard all the shouting and crashing about. I had a few bruises to show for it but he'd have had to have gone a long way to hurt me more than I regularly hurt myself cycling, skiing and snowboarding!!

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 17 Feb 2018 20:54:01 GMT

[quote user="Selena Carnell"]I'm one of those long time lurkers![/quote]

Well, welcome!

I do think that all veterinary surgeons should remember that the most junior vet is senior in rank to any nurse or receptionist.

It's tricky to give the secretary a telling-off when she's the boss's mistress, I grant you that.

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"] I have e feeling that most slow surgeons will understand that they are slow but it can't be changed overnight. [/quote]

What's so bad about being slow, if it comes to that? We are not in the eighteenth century any more. I don't think so, anyway.

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

Dinu Catilina — Sat, 17 Feb 2018 20:49:18 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I don't see how that can be bullying if they are always too slow that is valid repeated criticism.[/quote]

But unless the slow surgeon is lazy (which I think it very rarely is the case) how telling them to be faster will make them faster? Speed comes from confidence and experience? I have e feeling that most slow surgeons will understand that they are slow but it can't be changed overnight.

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

Selena Carnell — Sat, 17 Feb 2018 20:30:57 GMT

I'm one of those long time lurkers!

Having been in the profession since 1993, Ive seen it from most angles including myself enduring some hideous bullying from a Senior vet. Nurses can be vile, but so can some vets. Seeing a new grad struggle to remove a skin tumour, and the mentor vet basically saying 'Tell her to get on with it and whip it off' when she asked for advice and help, the dog subsequently ended up with a huge seroma. The new grad left funnily enough.

I've had to try and intervene when bullying started between the reception staff, it was quite nasty to watch, but the person dent want anything done about it. (she has since left us)

We have a particularly strong character on reception who can seriously make a drama out of most things. Heart of gold but sometimes lets her emotions get the best of her. She is currently pushing a bit too far in my direction as i am new to management, so am having to speak to her on monday, not something I'm looking forward too.

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

David Mills — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 20:25:44 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]the infamous occasion she sent in her boyfriend to beat me up.[/quote]

Please tell me you have a CCTV recording of this?

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 09:12:47 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]

I thought bullying was an ongoing and sustained attack, be it verbally or physically.

So "hurry up" would not be bullying, but continually haranguing a person to hurry up and criticising the speed of their work would be bullying.

[/quote]I don't see how that can be bullying if they are always too slow that is valid repeated criticism.

[quote user="Julie Innes"]I've never had a formal disciplinary with any of my staff, thank goodness! It sounds very stressful for all concerned, and hard to come out of it without any resentment on either side[/quote]I have but usually by the time you've reached that stage it is beyond the point of no return, it had become more stressful continuing to work with these people and it is more a relief to have finally plucked up the courage to sit them down in front of you. In my practice it has become just the first step to formal dismissal to make it legally watertight. I don't recall having a formal disciplinary meeting and the leopard changing its spots: the only three I recall ended in the individuals being sacked a short time later, one after the infamous occasion she sent in her boyfriend to beat me up.

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

Julie Innes — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 08:50:52 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Is there a legal definition of "bullying", or did I miss it.

Seems to me that it can be just a raised voice to some, and a total roasting to another?

I seem to remember someone saying that if a person thought they were being bullied, then legally they were, which sounds daft to me?

eg Is "hurry up!" bullying?

[/quote]

I thought bullying was an ongoing and sustained attack, be it verbally or physically.

So "hurry up" would not be bullying, but continually haranguing a person to hurry up and criticising the speed of their work would be bullying.

In my head, sometimes I get annoyed with staff, for doing/ not doing things that to me seem obvious and simple. But I think before I criticise out loud, and try to think how I can teach constructively, rather than "you did that wrong- again!". I also make an effort to praise when little things go well, especially if that staff member has been on the receiving end of more than usual constructive criticism recently!

I've never had a formal disciplinary with any of my staff, thank goodness! It sounds very stressful for all concerned, and hard to come out of it without any resentment on either side

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 13:53:54 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]I thought myself that vetsurgeon.org is really one of the more welcoming to new posters.[/quote]

I was thinking more about how some members are with each other, rather than with new posters, which I think can be off putting to a new poster even before they've posted!

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]sometimes home truths do have to be told.[/quote]

Sure, but I think one has to be particularly careful in how one delivers home truths in a forum, because they can read far more harshly than if they had been delivered face to face (with all the nuance of facial expression, and opportunity to clarify instantaneously).

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 13:00:30 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Well, there are an awful lot of lurkers, but agree, it's a notable event when new people participate. I think actually it's down to two things. Firstly, I think we have a bit of a reputation for being at times hostile. Second, there's a familiarity that has built up over the years between regulars, which can make it I think a bit daunting to join in.[/quote]

Is this not the same in any forum on any special interest?

I thought myself that vetsurgeon.org is really one of the more welcoming to new posters.

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

Anthony Todd — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 10:59:44 GMT

Is there a legal definition of "bullying", or did I miss it.

Seems to me that it can be just a raised voice to some, and a total roasting to another?

I seem to remember someone saying that if a person thought they were being bullied, then legally they were, which sounds daft to me?

eg Is "hurry up!" bullying?

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 10:20:30 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I note with some sadness that some of you had the usual comments on here, and I am paraphrasing, like 'nurses have to monitor vets so this behaviour is possibly justified' or 'your distressed reaction indicates you are not fit for this job, you must have an issue' etc. I have nothing to say except thank goodness some of you are not in HR, well I hope you are not. You would be making a right mess of it with your ingrained prejudices, which are clearly in evidence from your reaction to the thread 'Sick of it'. [/quote]I presume I'm among those you are criticising and I did tell you tell me to get lost if you felt like it so fair play you have done that.

But we only had one side of the story. I for one was just opening the possibility that there were other circumstances which may have to be taken into consideration especially as said your apparent fixation on suicide concerned me. This doesn't mean I assume you are incompetent or suffer mental health issues sorry if you are offended.

Believe it or not even I once upon a time worked as an assistant, I accepted fair criticism (from nurses if applicable) and AFAIR was never subject to unfair behaviour from other staff. Maybe by unwavering self-confidence deterred them but I would have given as good as I got, discussed it with my superiors if they were not the instigators, or walked in that order. As said I get nagged far more more by nurses as 'the boss' that I ever did as an assistant. It is generally all in good faith but I was beaten up by the boyfriend of one of my nurses who I (fairly) criticised, because she didn't like what she heard. Maybe that was my comeuppance!

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]There are rarely new posters on this site probably because of the repetitive same same posters making the same points. [/quote]I think it is unreasonable for new posters to come on here and expect nothing but unmitigated support and sympathy, sometimes home truths do have to be told.

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 09:34:18 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]There are rarely new posters on this site[/quote]

Well, there are an awful lot of lurkers, but agree, it's a notable event when new people participate. I think actually it's down to two things. Firstly, I think we have a bit of a reputation for being at times hostile. Second, there's a familiarity that has built up over the years between regulars, which can make it I think a bit daunting to join in.

I have a big plan in mind to create a new section/feature which will be far more inclusive, and built specifically to encourage input from the widest possible cross-section.

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

An On MRCVS — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 07:01:09 GMT

Thank you for all your replies. At some distance from the event now and I feel a bit better. It is not at all pleasant to be on the receiving end of a......well an out of control and prolonged temper tantrum in the work place and in the middle of a difficult work procedure too. It was very difficult under the circumstances to get my task completed that day but I did. That person almost caused a clinical mishap but luckily not.

I don't know at this point if the person concerned has some kind of mental health issue or severe personal problem at present. I suspect that they might and hope that the work place puts in place something to help prevent them from behaving like that again. I have good support from home and support from senior staff in work. I can't say more about the event than that.

I have not decided if I will stay in the long term, I will just see how work progresses now. Luckily I also work with some fantastic, balanced and really very perceptive co-workers who are excellent work colleagues. WE just get on with our work every day without a fuss. Oh and have a giggle too!

I note with some sadness that some of you had the usual comments on here, and I am paraphrasing, like 'nurses have to monitor vets so this behaviour is possibly justified' or 'your distressed reaction indicates you are not fit for this job, you must have an issue' etc. I have nothing to say except thank goodness some of you are not in HR, well I hope you are not. You would be making a right mess of it with your ingrained prejudices, which are clearly in evidence from your reaction to the thread 'Sick of it'.

There are rarely new posters on this site probably because of the repetitive same same posters making the same points. Please spare a thought for the vets who work 10+ hour days often without a break. It is happening all the time. No overtime sheets or Time off in lieu for us, though such exists for all the other staff very often. It happens for various reasons. That we are in this situation does not indicate that we are defective or inexperienced or have mental health issues. Yes we probably should collectively put our foot down and say no. We could make a giant snowball and throw it, just to show that we are no wimpy snowflakes.

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

Kate Richardson — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 13:34:00 GMT

Dear anon

I don't suppose your cert is in feline medicine by chance and you have had a lifelong desire to work in Bath by any remote chance.....if so please get in touch!

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

Edward Jones — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 12:09:19 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I am being bullied by a nurse.

...Sick and tired of this profession and it's shabby treatment of vets. [/quote]

You shouldn't tar the whole profession with the same brush. There are plenty of nice jobs out there, go and look!

If your situation is truly as you say then you'll have a great case to take to employment tribunal. Personally I wouldn't hesitate, bad employers should be punished.

A prospective employee without a notice period to work from their old job is attractive in and of itself.

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 09:24:10 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

That's not what is going on here. No clinical issues involved. Why is it always assumed that a bullied vet is inexperienced and doing something wrong, that a nurse has to 'correct'? And even if that were the case, why is one member of staff allowed to shout at, undermine, ridicule any other member of staff in front of others and repeatedly? Why are vets treated as the more disposable colleague? I know 2 vets personally who have committed suicide and 2 more young large animal vets who died quite young of cardiac arrest. I attribute their deaths to being harrassed and over worked by colleagues and farmers.

I won't say any more on here now. But please don't do this usual tired argument about nurses having to correct vets. It's not always the case and there us a correct way to help new/recent grads (not by ridiculing).

Signed Anon.

A 15 years full-time in work, cert holding vet.

[/quote]My post did say it was not aimed at you and that there is no excuse for bullying but your apparent morbid fixation on vets committing suicide and this line from your OP: 'Sick and tired of this profession and it's shabby treatment of vets. I would never self harm because of this profession but I am getting out', does make me concerned over your mental health and lack of self confidence and that there is more lying below the surface. Forgive me if it sounds judgmental and feel free to tell me to mind my own business but I do feel that someone with your level of experience should be mentally robust enough to deal with this situation either directly or through approaching senior vets/practice management - they may not even be aware its happening. If it is undeniably simply just a toxic practice (I've seen situations where the nurse was having an affair with the boss and thought it gave her carte blanche so it was never going to change) then as Stephen says get out, there are plenty of other jobs out there although I also appreciate that if you have roots in one place this is easier said than done.

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

Bob Russell — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 09:16:30 GMT

I don't accept the experienced nurse v's inexperienced vet nonsense.

A good experienced nurse will guide an inexperienced vet (or vice versa). A good nurse will also guide an experienced vet on occasions!!!

Bullying is a power play and nothing to do with clinical situations.

It is true that some people are not as diplomatic as others but that is not necessarily bullying.

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 06 Feb 2018 08:53:05 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]Why is it always assumed that a bullied vet is inexperienced and doing something wrong, that a nurse has to 'correct'?[/quote]

I'm not sure it is always assumed that is the case - was just unfortunate that Martin's post came when it did!

I'm such a believer in 'not letting the buggers win', and would just like to add to my previous post about using the Behaviour in Practice report as a way to try and encourage practice-wide change.

If you are NOT in a position to implement change of that sort, is there any other way you can instigate discussion about behaviour generally in your practice. A topic for discussion at staff meeting? Can you think of anything I can do to help? Some other way to highlight the issue in such a way as to make the perp aware of consequences of their behaviour (they may not be) without going head-to-head against them?

I just had another idea. A staff room poster with a set of deadly serious (but perhaps dressed in humour) rules about how vets should treat each other and nurses, and how nurses should treat each other and vets??? (which could be discussed in a practice meeting first).

I'm sure the answer in many of these kinds of situations is better communication. Or 'alternative' communication (ie teaching people to express themselves in a more constructive way than ridicule).

Having said I'm a believer in 'not letting the buggers win', I've got to agree with Stephen:

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]if you can't resolve it, for whatever reason, then leave. Life is too short, and at the very least it seems it is costing you your vocation. [/quote]

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

Stephen Courtney — Mon, 05 Feb 2018 22:11:44 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

Signed Anon.

A 15 years full-time in work, cert holding vet.

[/quote]

Please please get out of that situation - it seems toxic, and if you can't resolve it, for whatever reason, then leave. Life is too short, and at the very least it seems it is costing you your vocation.

Just get up and go, there is a massive shortage of vets with your experience, and you can pick and choose. Really and truly.

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

An On MRCVS — Mon, 05 Feb 2018 21:03:07 GMT

Signed Anon.

A 15 years full-time in work, cert holding vet.

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

Utlendigur — Mon, 05 Feb 2018 20:10:58 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]You're the veterinary surgeon. Give the nurse a bollocking to remind her who's boss.[/quote]

Unfortunately not going to work when this is the case....

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]And management is often aware and too frightened (or whatever the reason is for their inaction) to do anything about it.[/quote]

The problem is if they've turned a blind eye to the nurse (or receptionist) doing this before, and management is weak, they are not going to admit their mishandling of the situation before, or start dealing with it now.

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

Anthony Todd — Mon, 05 Feb 2018 19:54:38 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Don't dismiss them as being inferior just because they're not MRCVS, even with my level of experience/expertise my nurses have saved me from mistakes which may at best have been embarrassing and at worst catastrophic.[/quote]

Sorry, very true. Mrs Kirby [been at the branch for years and a font of all therapeutics] used to slide a bottle of the correct medication across the consult table for me to say "thankyou" and prescribe it by reading her label.

She also was of a conformation that could smother a dirigible so anything that needed "restraining" was restrained.

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 05 Feb 2018 19:08:02 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

You're the veterinary surgeon. Give the nurse a bollocking to remind her who's boss.

[/quote]

Too right but make sure you're right and the nurse is wrong first.

[/quote]This is not aimed at Anon but I would wager my nurses against any new/recent veterinary graduate on most practical aspects of the job. There is of course no excuse for genuine bullying or nurses pretending they're mini-vets but we need to be careful its not just an inexperienced/incompetent vet being corrected by the nurse who has seen it all before. Don't dismiss them as being inferior just because they're not MRCVS, even with my level of experience/expertise my nurses have saved me from mistakes which may at best have been embarrassing and at worst catastrophic.

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 05 Feb 2018 18:39:47 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]it's not always vets bullying nurses. I have seen other vets being bullied by nurses too.[/quote]

Indeed, this came out in the vetsurgeon.org survey too.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]but I am too humiliated and feel it woukd make the sitaution worse if I try to establish that[/quote]

Yes, it's somehow more humiliating to have to admit being bullied by someone junior. I mean, in a way, easier to admit being bullied by a 6ft boss who is known for being horrible to everyone.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Give the nurse a bollocking to remind her who's boss.[/quote]

That's easy (or easier) if the bully is doing something overt. But so often (mostly?) it's more subtle than calling someone an obviously rude name, or hitting them or something. More often, I suspect it's stuff that more subtly undermines someone else, and when on the margins, difficult to give a bollocking without the bully saying 'i dunno what you're talking about', thereby making you look the fool.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]but I am getting out.[/quote]

Don't let them win.

As a start, download the Behaviour In Practice Report. I don't know whether you are in any position to implement change at your practice. But getting a practice-wide anti-bullying policy in place might be a way to take this person on without being confrontational (and the evidence suggests they make a difference if implemented).

RE: Practice disciplinaries ...

Anthony Todd — Mon, 05 Feb 2018 18:32:52 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

You're the veterinary surgeon. Give the nurse a bollocking to remind her who's boss.

[/quote]

Too right but make sure you're right and the nurse is wrong first.