Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

J G Wray — Sat, 15 Jul 2017 08:59:23 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

That is a pointless and meaningless question.

[/quote]

For you, in the twilight of your career, perhaps. It wasn't for us and the others in independent practice we worked and work with.

Creating, appreciating, measuring and reflecting on value is more interesting and, errr, valuable than watching how your pension fund is performing. I feel much the same about profit, which is a consequence, an outcome......

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

Thomas Johnson — Sat, 15 Jul 2017 08:41:59 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]2) As Henry Marsh the neurosurgeon says in his book. 'That's what indemnity insurance is for' It can happen to anyone.[/quote]

I was particularly struck by him advising a patient to take legal action to get a payout from his indemnity insurance when he knew he had made a mistake, how many of us would consider doing that?

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]We locums don't earn twice what a regular or employed colleague would earn. I have not actually done the math, but if you take the salary of an experienced employed vet (lets say £45k - £50K), then factor in holiday, maternity and sick pay; 4 to 5 weeks annual holiday that may need locum cover, and 13% or so employers NIC, then it will be about on a par.[/quote]

A few years ago I did a quick 'back of the envelope' calculation and once I'd taken into account holiday pay and CPD I found that I would probably take home a similar salary as a locum as I did in full time employment.

Also when taking into account how much it costs a practice to employ a vet compared to having a locum, the cost of employing a vet often also includes the cost of locum while the employed vet is on holiday.

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

George Cooper — Fri, 14 Jul 2017 18:37:26 GMT

[quote user="Nick Taylor"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]The problem is that when the end result is the same but they don't see that the cheapo spay didn't get a pre-med, wasn't intubated and monitored, give post-op analgesia, allowed to recover in a nice kennel on a warm Vetbed etc etc they see no difference in value[/quote]

Maybe you should use your website to educate your potential clients. I think many owners want to know what is involved in the care of their pets. They are not stupid and understand there are price differentials for a reason. It is our job, is it not, to explain those reasons.

[/quote]

And the best and IMHO to do this is at reception when you have a chance face to face to talk to a client who has already made a buying decision to use you. They are also your best ambassadors. Treat 'em like you mean it!!

Websites - yawn. If used to attract new clients......... Surely the Holy Grail is not busting a gut to attract newbies but to "do more" for existing clients?

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 14 Jul 2017 18:10:58 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Is there any responsibility incumbent on a practice to articulate the value of their service and how it differs from others?[/quote]That is a pointless and meaningless question.

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]If I have my car serviced, frankly I don't care who does it. I know it will be done by a mechanic. I don't give a monkey's if they are using a particular wrench. In my eye's it's a standard procedure AKA the bitch spay to a lay person. I buy on price[/quote]I hope you remember that when it breaks down on a lonely road in the middle of a blizzard.

[quote user="Nick Taylor"]Maybe you should use your website to educate your potential clients.[/quote]I do.

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

J G Wray — Fri, 14 Jul 2017 16:38:15 GMT

[quote user="Nick Taylor"]Excellent question I'd love to see the data on.[/quote]

Join VetDynamics

https://www.vetdynamics.co.uk/

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

Nick Taylor — Fri, 14 Jul 2017 15:44:30 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

2) Are we as I suspect treating more animals in the overall population, and the finance coming into practices is the same year on year per Full Time Equivalent Vet (many are part time Anthony, you can't simple divide animals by vets now)

That's the question?[/quote]

Excellent question I'd love to see the data on.

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

Nick Taylor — Fri, 14 Jul 2017 15:42:16 GMT

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

J G Wray — Fri, 14 Jul 2017 15:07:59 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

There are 2 conclusions

1) By offering cheaper procedures, we are sucking the finance out of the profession

That's the question?

Neil

PS I see less pyometra now, this won't be date sensitive, an indication of % bitches spayed.

[/quote]

This has been measured and benchmarked for years in the FDI and it's successors, available to practice owners and a way of avoiding apophenia.

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

Neil Wheadon — Fri, 14 Jul 2017 14:24:05 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]When the number of people who just want the cheapest deal outweigh those who appreciate that cheapest is not always best value and you can no longer compete with the cut-price merchants but are not prepared to compromise your principals. I think we're very close to that if not past it now.[/quote]

If I have my car serviced, frankly I don't care who does it. I know it will be done by a mechanic. I don't give a monkey's if they are using a particular wrench. In my eye's it's a standard procedure AKA the bitch spay to a lay person. I buy on price

But they do, in all the clinics I have worked in, from 'posh' to 'cheap' We simply need to get away from this argument. Yes there are exceptions and Clive has experience but they are rare.

There are 2 conclusions

1) By offering cheaper procedures, we are sucking the finance out of the profession

That's the question?

Neil

PS I see less pyometra now, this won't be date sensitive, an indication of % bitches spayed.

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

J G Wray — Fri, 14 Jul 2017 12:18:40 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]The problem is that when the end result is the same but they don't see that the cheapo spay didn't get........ [/quote]

Is there any responsibility incumbent on a practice to articulate the value of their service and how it differs from others?

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 14 Jul 2017 11:54:14 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]What price value?[/quote]When the number of people who just want the cheapest deal outweigh those who appreciate that cheapest is not always best value and you can no longer compete with the cut-price merchants but are not prepared to compromise your principals. I think we're very close to that if not past it now.

The problem is that when the end result is the same but they don't see that the cheapo spay didn't get a pre-med, wasn't intubated and monitored, give post-op analgesia, allowed to recover in a nice kennel on a warm Vetbed etc etc they see no difference in value. Time to retire in my case.

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

J G Wray — Fri, 14 Jul 2017 09:07:39 GMT

There is a word missing from this thread - value.

What price value?

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

Julie Innes — Thu, 13 Jul 2017 16:56:56 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Julie Innes"]folk here seem pretty canny, and will play the corporates at their own game, getting their cheap vaccines, but going to a different vet for eg the dental they advise! Also the kind of clients that are only shopping on price , and just want the cheapest for their pet aren't really the kind of clients I want, so they are welcome to them. [/quote]Not sure if there's an oxymoron going on there Julie!

I won't tolerate practice tarts: they are told if you come to me its for everything if you jump back into bed with them for the cheap deals we won't accept you again. Ditto for your second sentence.

[/quote]I agree Martin! They get short shrift from me if I find out they have gone elsewhere for a cheap deal! But we regularly get people phoning round for prices. We always advise that we don't operate on other practices patients. I just meant that this type of client will never be a good "bonded" client, so the Corporates are welcome to them!

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

Rob Loxley — Thu, 13 Jul 2017 15:16:43 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]that all the money is being made by big pharma and not by the people who are actually doing the work at the coal face - ie you.[/quote]

I'm not sure the corporate money would be flowing into the veterinary sector if there wasn't money to be made.

I'd agree the pharmaceutical companies are making money, but equally are hardly doing nothing by providing some of the tools for practices to do our jobs?

I'd suggest that, as with most businesses, it is the owners - be it partners, shareholders, investment companies etc - that are making the money.

I think there is debate to be had as to where the balance of money goes between prices for clients, pay for vets and profit for owners. It seems wages are very stagnant for staff. Is there oversupply of cheap labour?

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

Anthony Todd — Thu, 13 Jul 2017 14:46:16 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

Data from the Pet Food Manufacturing association reveals

2004 - 9.6million cats

2011 - 8.6 million cats

2016 - 7.5 million cats

2017 - 8 million cats, yes a rise, mostly amongst men but hardly a doubling

Neil

[/quote]

now divide that by the number of vets, or even the number of practices......

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

Martin Hamilton — Thu, 13 Jul 2017 12:55:44 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

Hi again Martin

Careful with those statistics, when trying to illustrate a point.

[quote user="Martin Hamilton"]I read somewhere (no source, sorry) that the pet cat population has nearly doubled over the last few decades, with dogs remaining relatively stable. Again, no source, but I'd agree that the vet:animal ration has definitely altered[/quote]

Data from the Pet Food Manufacturing association reveals

2004 - 9.6million cats

2011 - 8.6 million cats

2016 - 7.5 million cats

2017 - 8 million cats, yes a rise, mostly amongst men but hardly a doubling

Neil

[/quote]

Yeah, as I said I can't remember the source, may well have been university animal husbandry lectures, but they demonstrated quite a boom from 1980-2010 in the number of cats coming to the vets. Maybe a transition from just your average farm moggie to a more "commercial pet" market.

Personally I think the Crux of the problem is practices undercutting one another for professional services, and now being unable to compete with online pharmacies, meaning profit margins are squeezed.

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 13 Jul 2017 12:50:43 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"]I expect that it depends on location. Round us in this particular Valley, there used to be 4 practices - and in the past two years more have opened and there are now nine![/quote]

I got up to 58 surgeries in Bristol, 2 years ago, off the top of my head and I'm sure I forgot some. 20 years ago, maybe in the low teens? 3 more (at least this year) I read last year that a new JVP venture were going to start and spotted Bristol as a gap in the market!

Neil (approaching saturation, so must stop posting)

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

George Cooper — Thu, 13 Jul 2017 12:44:35 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

[quote user="George Cooper"]These days I a convinced that there has been a splintering of existing practices as new branches have been opened up hoping to improve their catchment - but resulting only in the existing pet population being spread more thinly.[/quote]

Sorry turbo posting, but I do work in a lot of different places.

Vets4pets, The Vet and other practices such as these are accessing a client base that are 'poorer' but do not regularly go to a vet. My suspicion is yes they do take clients from existing practices (and increasingly themselves as more open closer together), but the overall percentage of animals seeing a vet has increased which is a good thing

Neil

[/quote]

I expect that it depends on location. Round us in this particular Valley, there used to be 4 practices - and in the past two years more have opened and there are now nine!

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 13 Jul 2017 12:41:59 GMT

Sorry turbo posting, but I do work in a lot of different places.

Neil

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 13 Jul 2017 12:30:36 GMT

I won't tolerate practice tarts: they are told if you come to me its for everything if you jump back into bed with them for the cheap deals we won't accept you again. Ditto for your second sentence.

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 13 Jul 2017 12:26:16 GMT

Hi again Martin

Careful with those statistics, when trying to illustrate a point.

Data from the Pet Food Manufacturing association reveals

2004 - 9.6million cats

2011 - 8.6 million cats

2016 - 7.5 million cats

2017 - 8 million cats, yes a rise, mostly amongst men but hardly a doubling

Neil

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

George Cooper — Thu, 13 Jul 2017 12:23:07 GMT

I had the pleasure of doing some "consultancy" work in and around the profession about 15+ years ago and was astonished at the diversity of just about every facet of practice in practices I visited, from those where the partners never actually got together to discuss anything at all, to those who were joined managementally at their frontal lobes.

THE most profitable practice had 2 partners, kept their books in meticulously kept ledgers in pencil written so microscopically you almost need a magnifying glass, and took home, that's right - TOOK HOME getting on for a quarter of a million each. This presented them with a bit of a dilemma when considering retirement - and their solution was to appoint, from within their families, a management team. They, the partners, retained ownership of the practice and were paid as shareholders, simply because they'd never have been able to "earn" a pension anywhere near that which they were used to. They were, obviously, and in my experience, a one-off!!

These days I a convinced that there has been a splintering of existing practices as new branches have been opened up hoping to improve their catchment - but resulting only in the existing pet population being spread more thinly. Add to that the incursion of V4P and others and you have fewer pets per vet, as since the start of time clients have tended to use their nearest practice. I always felt that the trick in growing a practice was to get clients to drive on past another practice to reach you!!

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 13 Jul 2017 12:13:53 GMT

Hi Martin

[quote user="Martin Hamilton"]I didn't say that locum actually make twice the amount[/quote]

Apologies if you didn't I followed Clive

[quote user="Martin Hamilton"]As a recent graduate I earn £28k per annum[/quote]

The clue is in recent graduate. My son is training as an Engineer, when he qualifies he'll commands salary pretty equivalent to yours but within 5-6 years will outstrip me as engineering/doctor/train driving/fireman,need I go on? are (I ask lots of friends their salary rates)

[quote user="Martin Hamilton"]work 60hrs a week (when including OoH)[/quote]

Are you actually working the whole 60 hours or are you just adding on the 12 hours OOH to your weekly total? I often work 50 hours a week without OOH (and locums travel further)

[quote user="Martin Hamilton"]My friend who is 3yrs out of uni locums for £230 a day, working 8 hours[/quote]

8 hour days are pretty unusual, 0900-1700 would be grand, charity clinic?

[quote user="Martin Hamilton"]We have a locum being paid £300 per day just now, maybe you should bump up your prices! [/quote]

Well I could, but trying to be fair, food for thought.

Neil

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

Anthony Todd — Thu, 13 Jul 2017 11:56:26 GMT

[quote user="Martin Hamilton"]even if take home pay for the individuals in question are similar[/quote]

You all would be amazed in the differences between vets, in the same practice with identical fees, in the amount earned and/or the "work" done.

My figures for my vets were staggering.

RE: Where's the money in veterinary practice going?

Martin Hamilton — Thu, 13 Jul 2017 11:54:35 GMT

I read somewhere (no source, sorry) that the pet cat population has nearly doubled over the last few decades, with dogs remaining relatively stable. Again, no source, but I'd agree that the vet:animal ration has definitely altered