India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

Anthony Todd — Tue, 11 Jul 2017 14:41:36 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]problem-based learning.[/quote]

Trouble would be, as well, is that what's a common problem isn't the sort of thing that is taught, it's usually the way out rarities [that the lecturer happens to be doing a paper on.....]

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 11 Jul 2017 14:25:13 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]The problem with problem-based learning, Minister, is that if they are faced with a problem that didn't come up in the problem-based learning teaching, they can't solve the actual problem they are facing.[/quote]

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

Anthony Todd — Tue, 11 Jul 2017 11:15:25 GMT

Don't the undergrads at US vet schools rate their lecturers and aren't the results regarded as significant?

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

Iain Richards — Tue, 11 Jul 2017 10:11:56 GMT

Interesting comments George, especially as last weekend was the SPVS Final Year Seminar. Especially as at one point a tongue in cheek comment about unrealistic lecturers not having a clue about practice raised a cheer - from the students.

We used to run a tutor session in small groups - experiences of EMS, uni etc. One year there were comments about what amounted to bullying from lecturers at one college. We fed it back and controlled it. So I'd be happy to take this comment further. Especially as I'm going to the RCVS for a Innovation Symposium, it's vital that the basics are right. A further criticism of current teaching came from a separate conference relating to the difficulty some students have due to a lack of knowledge based on being taught problem-based learning. The problem with problem-based learning, Minister, is that if they are faced with a problem that didn't come up in the problem-based learning teaching, they can't solve the actual problem they are facing. I understand that some medical schools are moving away from problem-based learning, precisely for this reason.

Teaching is a skill that can be taught, but is always best if done by someone with a passion for what they do. Being didactic or experiential doesn't really matter. The Great Barry Edwards was only in practice a short time, but what a fantastic teacher.

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 11 Jul 2017 07:54:49 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"]

Go for it Arlo!

Have you done it yet??[/quote]

Steady on George, I mean I like to think I'm reasonably quick, but ...

It was the 51st anniversary of my nativity on Friday, so in between the fireworks, marching band, Red Arrows flypast etc., I didn't get an awful lot done then.

I've also been working away furiously to get VetSurgeon Profiles done - proven a tad more complex than first anticipated, but nearly there (and increasingly excited about the potential - I keep reading posts and thinking 'I never knew that about you, how interesting' about things that should be in a profile).

Then a bit of a run of news yesterday, what with Jodie Marsh posting a video of herself giving CPR to her bulldog, amongst others).

But back to the survey, I think the questions are going to take a bit of careful thought. Will try to get to it asap, but may take a few days, in between the mountain of other stuff.

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 10 Jul 2017 17:00:30 GMT

[quote user="Ceri Gruffudd Jones"]

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

I graduated from Cambridge 14 years ago and I don't remember the lecturers doing this, or did it happen and it didn't have much impact on me? Anyone on here who was at Cambridge at a similar time have any memories of this happening?

[/quote]

I agree, Thomas. We had a few odd characters teaching us but I think they did all WANT to teach and see the students gain skills and knowledge to graduate. I do think that the level if mental illness among our cohort was excessive, though. I once counted up, of the people I knew well, and came to the conclusion that about 1 in 3 received some sort of medication / treatment for mental health problems over the six years.

Ceri

[/quote]

Hi Ceri, it's been a long time! I wasn't aware of people in our year on anti-depressants, but I guess it's not something they'd want to tell everyone about.

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

Rob Loxley — Fri, 07 Jul 2017 18:57:01 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]And those who can't teach.... still get lecturer appointments[/quote]

I though they taught PE :)

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 07 Jul 2017 16:01:50 GMT

And those who can't teach.... still get lecturer appointments.

Hactually, Sarah, in my day (here we go, groan) in pretty well everything clinical the teaching was done by people who had spent a good proportion of their lives doing, and doing very successfully in adversity and in conditions that today's students might find primitive or impossible. Most were brilliant teachers too: why? Because they took a personal interest in each and every one of their students, or else made a pretty good pretence of doing so. One however had favourites and cronies and treated the rest with contempt.

In non-clinical stuff 'twas different; a few were just incapable of teaching, and I well remember one unpleasant bully who later became a distinguished professor and government advisor.

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

Sarah Keir — Fri, 07 Jul 2017 15:23:08 GMT

Those who can't do, teach

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

Rob Loxley — Fri, 07 Jul 2017 13:11:16 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

[quote user="Sarah Keir"]

"It sounded like the lecturers are really, really out of touch with the reality of being a vet in practice and are seemingly hell-bent on frightening those students "

It ever was so... 15 years ago in my case.

[/quote]

[/quote] Not my experience either

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

Bob Russell — Thu, 06 Jul 2017 13:16:47 GMT

I have suspicions that antidepressants are dished out widely to the student age group. To my shock both of my sons were put on antidepressants following the break up of relationships!

I was under the impression that after a period of general misery (people in their twenties) it was normal to start looking for someone else. Plenty of fish in the sea stuff! Gets more complicated with age perhaps.

If students are on antidepressants is it a cop out by the medical profession to smooth the normal ups and downs of life? I would love to be able to rewind to my student days (without the exams bit though!) especially if I could go with all I know now!!

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

George Cooper — Thu, 06 Jul 2017 12:41:15 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="George Cooper"]

Well - I am pleased that there is a (very) slight rise in corroborative "evidence" that my source is actually pretty sanguine about what is happening.

My personal "problem" if you like is where to take the knowledge I have gleaned. I have bounced this distressing information off one or two prescient people both on this site and off it, including those who have "held office"...... The reaction has been remarkable similar - supportive, positive, and all pointing (bar one) to some sort of 'report' to the RCVS as it is their department if things are not measuring up.

As i said before - if things aint right, we are letting down both future vets who are definitely needed, and more specifically, those animals entrusted to us to do what is right.

I think this student WILL, with family help, initiate some sort of action/investigation/report when the time is right for their situation, but the comments from this forum and the people in it is, to me, invaluable.

We ALL have a stake in this.[/quote]

I think there might be some merit in a completely anonymous survey of current students, carried out by a completely independent organisation with no axe to grind (ie VetSurgeon.org).

[/quote]

Go for it Arlo!

Have you done it yet??

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 06 Jul 2017 09:08:10 GMT

[quote user="Stephanie Fursland"]Mental health problems are much more common in the general population than people think -[/quote]I believe this is possibly a misleading statement. Mental health issues are certainly common, probably most people suffer from anxiety and depression at some point in there lives to the extent it is normal human behaviour, but I suspect the reason that there seems to be more of a problem is because more people are seeking help and doctors dishing out anti-depressants instead of talking to patients and explaining that it is normal to feel down at times so they join the statistics, whereas in the past we just got on with life the best we could.

There is a huge risk of categorising normal variation in mood as mental illness and encouraging a self-induced spiral of depression which then becomes difficult to get out of. Of course we shouldn't lose sight of the few who do genuinely have mental illness and need correct support.

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 06 Jul 2017 07:26:31 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"]

Well - I am pleased that there is a (very) slight rise in corroborative "evidence" that my source is actually pretty sanguine about what is happening.

As i said before - if things aint right, we are letting down both future vets who are definitely needed, and more specifically, those animals entrusted to us to do what is right.

We ALL have a stake in this.[/quote]

I think there might be some merit in a completely anonymous survey of current students, carried out by a completely independent organisation with no axe to grind (ie VetSurgeon.org).

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

Stephanie Wellings — Wed, 05 Jul 2017 23:21:08 GMT

Mental health problems are much more common in the general population than people think -

https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/sites/default/files/fundamental-facts-about-mental-health-2016.pdf

Statistically you would expect a significant proportion of any group of 18-24 year olds to suffer from mental health issues over a six year period, whether they were vet students or not. The type of people at vet school (mostly women, high achievers) will maybe be more likely than the population at large to suffer from mental health issues, but it doesn't follow that vet school, or the profession, is the cause.

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

George Cooper — Wed, 05 Jul 2017 23:19:02 GMT

Well - I am pleased that there is a (very) slight rise in corroborative "evidence" that my source is actually pretty sanguine about what is happening.

As i said before - if things aint right, we are letting down both future vets who are definitely needed, and more specifically, those animals entrusted to us to do what is right.

We ALL have a stake in this.

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 05 Jul 2017 22:18:51 GMT

Maybe I live in some form of 'happy bubble' but

[quote user="Ceri Gruffudd Jones"]I once counted up, of the people I knew well, and came to the conclusion that about 1 in 3 received some sort of medication / treatment for mental health problems over the six years. [/quote]

That's a truly dreadful statistic. I asked 2 year qualified Cambridge grad today if any of her/his year was on anti-depressants and the answer was 'quite a few'

Surely this should be ringing alarm bells somewhere?

Neil

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

Ceri Gruffudd Jones — Wed, 05 Jul 2017 22:06:45 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

[/quote]

Ceri

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

Stephanie Wellings — Wed, 05 Jul 2017 19:15:11 GMT

Ditto, I was very happy with the teaching that I got at vet school (Cambridge, graduated 4 years ago) and with my skills when I graduated. Staff struck a good balance - supportive when needed, but there was a clear expectation that we worked to a certain standard, as is entirely appropriate when teaching a class of soon to be professional adults. We did get the opportunity to perform surgery (maybe 2 or 3 bitch spays?) on rotation, and rotations included RSPCA clinic so we also got used to medicine on a budget.

I think it is good that now stress and welfare of vet students and vets are very topical, as it means it's no longer so taboo to ask for help and hopefully those who need help will get it, but I think the numbers involved can sometimes be overstated. In my experience it was a minority of people who struggled with these issues at university (and my friends in other subjects certainly struggled just as much if not more).

In all areas, the concept of a 'job for life' is increasingly vanishing, so people generally don't stay as long in one job; the difference in veterinary medicine is you have a finite and limited number actually qualified to do the job, so your pool for recruiting replacements gets depleted.

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

Martin Hamilton — Wed, 05 Jul 2017 16:53:32 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Qualified 1972. While things were by no means perfect, Bristol was not remotely like that. Then.[/quote]I don't think us dinovets can even begin to compare our experience to those today. For a start we were much more motivated and determined to be vets when it was not a glamorous profession and didn't belong to the current academically high flying generation who have known nothing but success and found it easy up until now with total support/pressure from ambitious parents. The contrast of being on their own and for the first time finding out they're not infallible inevitably leads to self doubt and insecurity maybe even depression and when university staff are not holding their hands all the time find the pressure too great.

That said, like you Evelyn, I don't have a single bad word to say about my experience at Liverpool in the early 70's. There were a few less than ideal lecturers and couple of bullies, and you're going to find people like that in any institution, but they met their match in me and created no problem. however I can see how someone less self confident could have been intimidated and the current generation may not be as tough and able to deal with it.

[/quote]

No idea what vet school is in question here, but I can safely say that Edinburgh was great to me from 2011-2016, and cannot really complain about my experience. As you said, there are always staff members who are a little more pushy etc. We were able to do 5 - 6 spays in our final year in cats/dogs and half a rabbit spay, so I wouldn't say that the class size has had a massive impact on the teaching there. We had small group tutorials in groups of 6-7 frequently over the 5 years, with plenty of practical classes. Nothing quite matches up to doing the job, but I'd like to think the teaching was relatively top notch. I was also lucky enough to have a supportive practice for my EMS which allowed me to get a lot of hands on experience and even perform some consults under supervision and with the owners consent.

A big thing I have noticed is the intake of students. The year that I applied (2010) the required grades were pretty much straight A's/A*'s for A level and there was still around 2000 applicants who made the cut for interviews. That was competition for 120 undergraduate spaces, of which 60 are allocated to overseas students. So I wouldn't say that those who apply now aren't as determined (only a 3% chance of selection in the interview process), it's just that the selection process is selecting for different types of people now. My brother is currently a vet student back at Edinburgh, and just discussing the difference in social life etc is quite something - for a start the mens rugby and football have had to basically fold due to lack of interest and decline in male vets. Even with outsourcing, the football team has had to fold entirely this year, and the rugby team are talking of merging with the university team, leading to a loss in identity. You'd expect the womens teams to be flourishing, but some of those are suffering from a huge drop in numbers.

The interview proccess seems to be selecting for those with additional extra curricular education rather than hobbies, sports etc. I may be generalising, but these newer students seem to be unable to let go of studying, working etc. Then again, maybe I'm just biased as a relatively active, sporty person. I seem to have been fortunate that one of my interviewers was the president of the rugby club, I'm sure that's one of the main reasons I got in

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 05 Jul 2017 15:02:31 GMT

Sounds like shades of the situation within British Cycling recently headlined and documented. University can be a pressure cooker environment the same and sometimes that pressure is needed to succeed. I feel that maybe time and resources are just not available to those who are not quite up to the grade and I guess that weeding them out early on is better than them floundering in practice after qualification and descending into deeper depression and the road to worse things like suicide.

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 05 Jul 2017 12:19:48 GMT

[quote user="Sarah Keir"]

"It sounded like the lecturers are really, really out of touch with the reality of being a vet in practice and are seemingly hell-bent on frightening those students "

It ever was so... 15 years ago in my case.

[/quote]

Qualified 1972. While things were by no means perfect, Bristol was not remotely like that. Then.

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

George Cooper — Wed, 05 Jul 2017 11:19:48 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="George Cooper"]they've lost so many undergraduates, and the support from staff "I am allergic to students who cry" quote - is hardly the stuff of REAL support. Apparently a majority of students are actively on anti-depressants.[/quote]I can believe that there are a minority of staff who are not up to the job but statements like these I'm afraid I have to take with a large pinch of salt and wonder is actually really down to the student not being made of the 'right stuff' and exaggerating their own predicament. The majority are on anti-depressants - really?

[/quote]

hi Martin

this kinda reflected my own response initially, too, and is completely understandable as this is an uncorroborated set of comments from a single student. However, I do not think that there is any elaboration going on. The school has lost well into double figures as the time has elapsed - and I can't thing that that is the norm in all schools.

Whatever the "truth" of the situation, it is my belief that, because it appears that the next generation of vets, and therefore the next generations of animals under their care is being seriously "Let down", we should be taking it seriously and investigating.

One further hair-raising story was of differing sets of students attending to an inpatient giving differing medications without any supervision. That is unacceptable.

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 05 Jul 2017 10:29:44 GMT

RE: India, New Grads, Teaching Contracts et al

Anthony Dennison — Wed, 05 Jul 2017 10:16:45 GMT

I graduated from Bristol 5 years ago and found the lecturers to be quite sensible - they would teach us the gold standard but when asked the question 'Yes, but what about in the real world...' they would explain the various options. Same when it came to rotations - we would often get 'we're doing it this way here in our referral centre, but in first opinion practice you may do it this way'.

Ed Hall at Bristol was fantastic at this. The guy is a hero of mine; INCREDIBLY knowledgeable but can communicate it well, very down to earth and is well aware of the restrictions of first opinion practice. So approachable too.