UK government offer to EU nationals

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

Bob Russell — Wed, 28 Jun 2017 12:52:27 GMT

It is likely that EU/EEA law will largely be transposed into UK law in the first instance by the great repeal bill.

What will happen is probably much less scary than what actually will happen.

That said I still cannot see what people are harping on about. PR costs £65 and it is expected that the new paperwork will cost about the same.

EU residents are being offered on-going residence with at least the same rights (other than voting) as a British citizen. If that is not good enough then apply for naturalisation and become British! This country is not going to be a member of the EU therefore EU rules will no longer apply (even if the new British laws are identical).

We have all got to deal with the world changing and get on with life. Nobody is going to be deported, tax, benefits and pensions will remain the same. Family rights will stay pretty much the same.

I believe there are far more important things for British and EU residents to worry about rather than the niggles that are being put forward. Mountains out of molehills.

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 28 Jun 2017 12:15:54 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

I suspect this will be one of the things that is 'negotiated'. As I see it those with Permanent residence already have the right to residence. It says so on the permit!

[/quote]

The permit is an EEA directive. It will be scrapped with the great repeal bill.

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

Bob Russell — Wed, 28 Jun 2017 09:51:16 GMT

I suspect this will be one of the things that is 'negotiated'. As I see it those with Permanent residence already have the right to residence. It says so on the permit!

I also suspect the legal system will have something to say about the matter!

There will be tinkering around the edges but I believe this is one situation that can be resolved easily and fairly! Hope so or the courts will be buzzing!

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

mariette asselbergs — Tue, 27 Jun 2017 23:04:23 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"] Sure the 5 year cut of date hasn't quite had the exact time frame set yet but the will is there.[/quote]

Well, anyone who was for 5 years in the UK legally can anyway apply for permanent residency, regardless of them being from the EU or outside of it. So Teresa May offered absolutely nothing. This doesn't affect me at all but simple math should show her that it's not a good deal to swap 3.5 millions healthy working age europeans with 1 millions retired brits. Talking about strain on NHS.

All this charade is set up to hide that since Brexit the UK government did absolutely nothing. NO results at all. Yes, sure you can blame the EU for being stubborn but nobody gives anything for free.

[/quote]

As you have been able to learn today, this "permanent residence permit" is now worth nothing for EU citizens who managed to get it. They have to register all over again, (and pay), and lose their local voting rights in the process.

Their new status of "permanent right to stay" will only be guaranteed by the British government, who just now showed how easily they can make it worth nothing!!

It took me a year, three attempts, and three kg of paper evidence submitted to receive my "permanent residence permit" three weeks ago. Now it is already useless and no longer a "permanent right to stay".

It doesn't surprise me, having already lost my status of "permanent resident" in another country once before. These wordings mean nothing if not properly protected.

Mariette

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

Bob Russell — Tue, 27 Jun 2017 16:56:01 GMT

It really is depressing to see wage levels but look at the veterinary profession as an example of low pay and poor working conditions.

OVS work largely being carried out by low paid EU graduates, same group working in the vaccination clinics.

This work used to be done by junior practice staff (new graduates especially) but they had the prospect of longer term work and partnership with the rewards that brought.

EU workers have been drawn into the UK, often reducing salaries dramatically. My wife now works in a hotel with no EU staff whatsoever. A very happy place where people are valued. Other hotels have been much less happy places, not least because (edit:often EU national) staff are considered disposable assets.

The drop in the value of sterling has made this country less attractive as a workplace.

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

Malcolm Ness — Tue, 27 Jun 2017 16:46:15 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]The UK is/has turned into a country of mass employment but at what cost?[/quote]

An alternative view is that a major chronic problem with the UK economy is relatively low productivity. That has many contributory factors but an over-arching one is the ready availability of cheap labour in the form of freely moving European economic migrants.

One of the most depressing facts about the recent debacle is that as the UK negotiating hand weakens, that of the European Oligarchs grows stronger and with it, the chances of seeing the much needed reform and democratisation of the EU grows less likely. It will all end in tears.

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 27 Jun 2017 15:48:44 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]What I thought was interesting was that it was Keir Starmer who quoted the statistics on the proportion of UK citizens who wouldn't earn enough to bring a non-UK or -EU spouse into the country, something like 42%, and 51% of women.[/quote]

Depressing isn't it, that so many are under £18000/annum?

For me this has been the one real eye opener of the reasons behind BREXIT.

The UK is/has turned into a country of mass employment but at what cost? Wage deflation and long hours, seemingly every person is a barista in a coffee bar. No wonder so many voted to leave because they had so little to lose.

Neil

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

Bob Russell — Tue, 27 Jun 2017 15:07:03 GMT

The minimum income figure is based around the level that income related benefits are no longer payable. If someone is earning less than this the tax payer makes up the rest because most benefits depend on joint incomes.

Yet again this would be a situation where Corporation Tax would be spent for the third or fourth time. The rules are tough but changing the rules would involve means testing and changing all the benefits rules to prevent the non-EU spouse gaining benefit from the system.

I believe there should be a mechanism to allow couple to demonstrate they will not be a drain on the system. A retired couple with no mortgage can live more cheaply than a family with rent etc to pay.

Do we really want to spend our tax money this way or on health, housing and policing?

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 27 Jun 2017 14:55:11 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

Keir Starmer was on radio 4 this morning. (Labours BREXIT guru)

He wants the UK to simply allow EU citizens the same rights as the moment. However there is a massive contradiction in this that the presenter didn't follow through. For anyone outside the EU, those wives and children can't come unless they can be shown to be able to support themselves (£18000) where at present EU residents can and this can be any time into the future.

[/quote]

What I thought was interesting was that it was Keir Starmer who quoted the statistics on the proportion of UK citizens who wouldn't earn enough to bring a non-UK or -EU spouse into the country, something like 42%, and 51% of women. He said the Labour would review it, and the impression I got was that he would be in favour of changing the rules for UK citizens.

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 27 Jun 2017 14:48:30 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Reciprocating the EU 'offer' would mean continued involvement of the ECJ.

[/quote]

I meant with the change I proposed. I understand Michael's feelings about a foreign power having a say. But the situation is quite unprecedented, it would benefit British citizens in the EU and, frankly, it might be than those would be the net beneficiaries of such a system. The UK would have a strong voice over its citizens that would be equal of EUx27 states (considering their potential disagreements) to EU citizens in the UK if it were to be formed like for like.

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

Bob Russell — Tue, 27 Jun 2017 14:33:42 GMT

Quite right it does allow for refusal of settled status to serious and persistent criminals. No loss to the UK but there is already an appeal mechanism where the applicant can claim under human rights particularly those with settled families.

Forgive me if I don't have too much sympathy for these people! Any non-UK citizen can be deported on grounds of criminality already so no real change there. Might encourage better behaviour if they face removal at the end of their sentences!

Reciprocating the EU 'offer' would mean continued involvement of the ECJ.

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

Malcolm Ness — Tue, 27 Jun 2017 14:19:45 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]An independent judiciary system formed by both parties [/quote]

Why should the judiciary of a foreign power have any say at all?

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 27 Jun 2017 14:14:37 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

The criminal records bit only applies to someone applying for naturalisation. It pretty much hits the chances on the head. Minor offences may delay it and major ones prevent it happening in any event as it does now[/quote]

I don't think that's correct Bob, it applies to anyone applying for the new 'settled' status.

[quote]

[/quote]

Which would be pointless since settled EU citizens would have no vote, possibly losing right to vote in locals too, citizenship might be a solution for some, but not for many that need to preserve FoM if they have elderly relatives to look after. I suspect another solution would be for some EU countries to allow dual citizenship. An independent judiciary system formed by both parties should oversee the protection of rights for both groups imo.

Wasn't easier to just reciprocate the EU offer? It covers Brits too.

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

Bob Russell — Tue, 27 Jun 2017 13:59:59 GMT

We already have a two stream system where one group of people have more rights than others. It seems only right that there should be a level playing field.

I doubt the cut off date will be anything other than the date the UK leaves the EU therefore everyone in the UK has the choice to bring partners into the UK before this date. People will know the date in advance and will be able to make a decision to settle in the UK based on post-Brexit rules. There is scope for shorter term visas to be introduced (the so called 'Barrista' visa) to allow EU nationals to spend fixed periods in the UK.

If the EU are so keen to keep EU nationals rights the same are they interested in offering the same deal to me? I very much doubt it!

Continued negativity from the EU is more likely to increase support for Ms May rather than decrease it IMO so it really is their choice whether to work for a good and fair deal or block it.

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 27 Jun 2017 13:45:34 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]By making the rather daft decision to leave the EU[/quote]

It wasn't me

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Corbyn coming to power[/quote]

Keir Starmer was on radio 4 this morning. (Labours BREXIT guru)

In effect we will have a 2 stream system into the future and it could be argued that asylum seeking from outside the EU are in greater need of UK residency.

The Government seems to be trying to be pragmatic. To me it seems that a cut off date for allowing family to come over is urgently required, but this is only the first part and my thought is that things will be clear very soon, and those here already (pre vote) have nothing to fear?

Neil

PS Google just fined 2.4 Billion by the EU, that'll make up for the taxes the totally ineffectual George Osbourne was spouting on about, shame we'll lose that ability.

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

Bob Russell — Tue, 27 Jun 2017 13:22:45 GMT

Cobblers!

There is no presumption anywhere that I can see where anyone is presumed to be a criminal. If someone holds a British passport then the UK is stuck with them. If someone is a foreign national then why not send them back to their home country? This is unlikely to happen where the person has a British partner anyway because of their human rights.

Sadly people have to get used to the idea that the UK is not the same country outside the EU as it is at present. Everyone is going to have to adapt including those EU residents. Everyones rights will be modified in some way as the UK leaves the EU.

Parliament can and does change laws but that is democracy at work. The Lords is there to moderate the effects of the Commons. I suspect any changes to the rights of settled EU citizens would be met with retaliation by EU nations so worrying about what just might happen but probably won't seems a little hysterical. Corbyn coming to power would be a massive and real threat to business.

One of the reasons why people in this country voted for Brexit was to minimise the perceived interference by the EU in what should be UK matters.

I really don't see what the ongoing fuss is about! By making the rather daft decision to leave the EU we are all going to find our rights will change to some extent.

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 27 Jun 2017 12:47:57 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

I fail to see what is wrong with having the same rights as a British citizen if living in the UK. The right to vote comes after citizenship which is open to anyone resident for long enough without a criminal record.

If you move to the US, you live and work under their laws.

[/quote]

two points.

The criminal point being raised by the UK (not the EU) reinforces the view that EU citizens are criminals until proven otherwise. This is quite low imo. I understand the need to register, but an EU passport and residency proof should suffice. I don't see the EU asking for criminal checks on retired Brits in Spain, but who knows now.

Second, 'if you move to the US', you go there knowing your rights before making that decision. The problem here is that rights that were previously acquired under EU law (which in term was passed to UK law) are being threatened. It's a different concept from 'moving to a different country'.

[quote]

All I see is whinging. We have a good court system under the overseen by the Supreme Court. They are well known for their independence and government cannot interfere!

[/quote]

Genuinly interested on this.

Are you saying that Parliament can't change the law regarding the status and rights of the newly created 'settled EU citizens' after Brexit?

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

Bob Russell — Tue, 27 Jun 2017 11:11:47 GMT

If you move to the US, you live and work under their laws. The UK will not be a part of the EU or the ECJ so why would anyone consider it appropriate for a regional justice system to apply?

The rather crazy system that allows non-EU partners to go under one law for us and one law for them was foisted on the UK and was not a choice.

All I see is whinging. We have a good court system under the overseen by the Supreme Court. They are well known for their independence and government cannot interfere!

Worrying about what might happen in the future is a normal state of affairs. I worry about having a Marxist government which is not quite so unbelievable as it was a few months ago.

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

Dinu Catilina — Tue, 27 Jun 2017 00:52:04 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]An EU citizen can have a non-EU partner 'settle' with them very easily as long as they are not living in the country of the EU citizen. Eg French citizen living in the UK or a British citizen living in France[/quote]

So the law is the same for everybody then. Anyone can settle with a non-EU partner as long as they are not living in their own country.

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 26 Jun 2017 22:59:28 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

There may be a few issues

[/quote]

Indeed there are.

I have mixed feelings about it. A blog here https://goo.gl/Bkdmqe

exposes most of it failures, which I guess could be addressed (or it could be made worse since the groups are likely to end living in countries with little or no representation). I certainly welcome the dropping of the CSI requirement nonsense.

And I disagree that the government is xenophobic, irrational yes, but the xenophobia comes from some tabloids' political editors and columnists, not tthe government. Well, at least, that's what I want to believe.

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

Bob Russell — Mon, 26 Jun 2017 18:13:10 GMT

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/safeguarding-the-position-of-eu-citizens-in-the-uk-and-uk-nationals-in-the-eu/the-united-kingdoms-exit-from-the-european-union-safeguarding-the-position-of-eu-citizens-living-in-the-uk-and-uk-nationals-living-in-the-eu

There may be a few issues but it does seem perfectly reasonable to me. British courts have not been that Home Office friendly so are perfectly capable of ensuring our rights are looked after.

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

Bob Russell — Mon, 26 Jun 2017 11:10:28 GMT

No contradiction!

An EU citizen can have a non-EU partner 'settle' with them very easily as long as they are not living in the country of the EU citizen. Eg French citizen living in the UK or a British citizen living in France.

A French citizen has to comply with French immigration law if they wish to settle in France. Similarly a British citizen wishing to return with a non-EU partner has to comply with UK law. In this case the partner has to show English at least to B1 level. The British citizen has to demonstrate a minimum income of at least £18 600 a year.

One is national law, the other is EU law.

There are companies that will provide a package of housing, paperwork and a 'job' in Ireland!

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

Dinu Catilina — Mon, 26 Jun 2017 09:47:50 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]At present EU nationals have more rights than a British citizen and I cannot see this being acceptable in the future.[/quote]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]It is true that a British citizen living in another EU country can benefit from the same ruling [/quote]

I think there might be a contradiction there Bob.

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

Bob Russell — Mon, 26 Jun 2017 09:37:40 GMT

I am far more concerned at the attitude of the Eurocrats. The immediate reaction was pretty negative.

At present EU nationals have more rights than a British citizen and I cannot see this being acceptable in the future.

The prime examples involve non-EU partners being allowed to enter the UK without any need for language or financial requirements being met. It is true that a British citizen living in another EU country can benefit from the same ruling but it is being widely abused especially people briefly settling in the Irish Republic before moving to the UK under the Surrinder Singh judgement in the EU courts.

It would seem unfair for another legal system to be able to overturn British court judgements when they could not for a British citizen.

Still have to await the details but seems a pretty fair offering on the face of it!

RE: UK government offer to EU nationals

Dinu Catilina — Mon, 26 Jun 2017 09:34:28 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"] Sure the 5 year cut of date hasn't quite had the exact time frame set yet but the will is there.[/quote]

All this charade is set up to hide that since Brexit the UK government did absolutely nothing. NO results at all. Yes, sure you can blame the EU for being stubborn but nobody gives anything for free.