Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 25 May 2017 13:11:48 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]There seems to be a bizarre voyeurism propagating those reporting the news.[/quote]

That's what news reporting is.

So don't buy newspapers and don't gawp at the telly. If you feel it's important to get daily news, get the headlines at 10p.m. on BBC radio and listen further if there's anything of importance.

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

Bob Russell — Thu, 25 May 2017 12:23:40 GMT

I am getting fed up with the now constant drip feeding of stories of suffering. I don't want to know about the last few minutes of an eight year old's life where she is calling for her mother.

I can imagine all of this (and worse) but it will not change anything. I can see it causing immense additional hurt for those closest to the bereaved families not to mention significant upset for those not closely involved. It probably has the losers involved wetting themselves with happiness as well.

People heading towards the explosion to help can be rewarded later for their bravery and kindness.

There seems to be a bizarre voyeurism propagating those reporting the news.

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 25 May 2017 09:07:23 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

But you would probably disagree if we were to discuss what should have been done.

[/quote]

Probably. I'm sure there would be many points in common tho.

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 24 May 2017 23:18:49 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

Many times I disagree with Evelyn. I do agree with this quote:

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

We could start by being a damn sight more thoughtful and clever about who we support in the Middle East and what we do there.

[/quote]

But you would probably disagree if we were to discuss what should have been done.

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 24 May 2017 23:09:23 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"] remember we are living in the longest period of peace ever? in Europe (is that right Evelyn?)[/quote]

Could well be. Thanks to NATO.

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

Nhombokisheni — Wed, 24 May 2017 22:55:02 GMT

The first thing IMO is to open up free public debates on the issue. If we all can voice or opinions without fear of being "placed on police watch lists" as possible sympathisers/racists then just maybe those from the Arab world who know more can speak out and help with a solution. I can bet my bottom dollar if I decided to research the root of Isis and its ideology, I will be on that list faster than the speed of my broadband

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

Robin Grimmer — Wed, 24 May 2017 22:21:02 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

If you think about someone that was already in a 'terror list', I agree with you. But if it wasn't, how do you differentiate someone who went to visit family (like I do sometimes) from someone who went to get 'radicalised'?

[/quote]

You don't. We have a Trump-style list of countries that we don't allow people in from, mainly failed states eg Libya and Syria. Don't worry, Spain won't be on that list, no matter how bad things get over Gibraltar ;)

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 24 May 2017 21:27:16 GMT

Awfully simplistic I know but the culture outside Europe is different

For example the 'revenge culture' exists in Pakistan. If you cause harm, then expect retribution.

Total leadership keeps a lid on it, look at Saudi Arabia.

For a completely flippant view of the Middle East, watch "Kingdom of Heaven' the sword and saddles yarn with Orlando Bloom. It's been happening for millennia, at times a few hundred years pass with peace but it boils up again, depressing really and remember we are living in the longest period of peace ever? in Europe (is that right Evelyn?)

Neil

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

rhmrcvs — Wed, 24 May 2017 21:17:24 GMT

Was a very good programme on radio 4 couple of years ago. It's often not about bad experiences , being oppressed etc etc. Bizarrely Trump is right , tbey are losers. Was a v sensible prof who has studied extremists for years, the actual perpetrators are often loners, bit useless, unsuccessful , no girlfriend, no mates etc etc. They are v easy to manipulate and they want to feel " part of something " then prove how fab (!) They are. Complete losers but stupid and useless enough to be dangerous. Just luck to be in a different place when they kick off .

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 24 May 2017 21:12:50 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]

We were warned about the threat of returning jihadis from places like Libya and Syria.

Already radicalised and now battle hardened and have probably witnessed many atrocities themselves.

They should never have been allowed back in.

[/quote]

[quote]

clearly we care more about their human rights than those of our children - blown to bits in the most horrible way.

[/quote]

Human rights not the issue IMO. Having them differentiate rational people (us) from savages (them). They seek to divide us. There are and there have been ways to avoid this.

Remember this? https://www.vetsurgeon.org/uk/general/f/66/p/16137/95941.aspx#95941 It's only about 4 years old. I wonder if all this had happened had we not gone there.. to 'sort them out'.

Before we (the West) went there, he was a good guy...

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR1Q6GdbAKUBpCanQxb1y1XZQk9kifSSH7t0Mj0KsrnaaD3wxVlVg

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRTqlSh-YXe30RYKNAERP6rN4m5mdtinpwp-Negh7Xk6Z_-2IA_Qg

http://e3.365dm.com/16/07/608x342/blair-and-gaddafi-1_3509290.jpg?20160704114928

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/gaddafi-welcomes-aznar-to-libya-1.499742

I won't go into if the intervention was justified or not, but I'd guess that for most people in the ground, a foreign force imposed their will.

In no way do I justify the terror actions, let me be clear on this. But I'm sure we could do a lot more to raise our moral ground internationally.

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

Robin Grimmer — Wed, 24 May 2017 20:05:33 GMT

We were warned about the threat of returning jihadis from places like Libya and Syria. Already radicalised and now battle hardened and have probably witnessed many atrocities themselves. But clearly we care more about their human rights than those of our children - blown to bits in the most horrible way. They should never have been allowed back in.

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 24 May 2017 19:20:47 GMT

I agree with most here. However I believe that an enourmous step to Really prevent terror is to defuse the argument of those that inflict it. Or of those who brainwash those who inflict it.

Although not a proper comparison, my view is that ETA stopped in Spain partly because the next region (Catalonia) is miles closer to hold a referendum or become independence without shooting a single bullet (ETA has killed more than a thousand people). Suddenly terror becomes pointless.

Many times I disagree with Evelyn. I do agree with this quote:

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

We could start by being a damn sight more thoughtful and clever about who we support in the Middle East and what we do there.

[/quote]

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

Dagmar Steele — Wed, 24 May 2017 19:11:06 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]Locking somebody up, indefinitely (possibly for decades under your plan- when could you say that the threat from extremists had subsided to a low level?) without saying why and with no trial is a pretty inflammatory thing to do. [/quote]

Exactly what I was going to say. You can't lock up every soul who COULD commit murder. Locking up people before they have committed any crime is not only unethical and illegal, but also just encourages others to take up the banner. It simply doesn't work (The USA tried it with Guantanamo bay - didn't work there either.)

[/quote]

As much as I am with you on that statement recent events in Germany have shown that if people just had their wits together and had done what they were supposed to do things would be a lot better. The guy who drove into a Christmas market killing 12 people was well known to the police, viewed as a potential threat, was a known drug dealer and burglar and yet hadn't been arrested let alone made to leave the country. In contrast, after the attack documents categorizing him as a criminal and offender have been falsified and dated back to before the attack. This will be subject to further investigations of course but it comes to show that we actually don't need stricter laws but people doing their job and enforcing them. It makes me really sad that this could happen and that I would ever write these words because I'm all for letting refugees into our country. If they turn out to be criminals they should be locked up or made to leave though.

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 24 May 2017 18:17:30 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]The first is that these arent devout Muslims[/quote]

The trouble is, I think they probably are. Devout in their own branch of Islam.

As far as I can see, there are many varieties and branches of Islam, and this one is nasty. About the only really nasty religion I can think of offhand.

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 24 May 2017 18:00:47 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]However it takes around 16 people to monitor one person for 24 hours - there simply aren't the resources to manage this for everyone who may be a threat. Also, there are attacks foiled every single week.[/quote]As terrorists say: the security forces have to get it right every time, we only have to get it right once.

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 24 May 2017 17:53:33 GMT

Sounds rather like Guantanamo Bay, in fact. That has gone well for the US...

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 24 May 2017 17:51:06 GMT

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

David Mills — Wed, 24 May 2017 17:50:59 GMT

There are a number of things that come after these events. A friend of mine from back at home was there with his daughter and thankfully was unscathed.

The first is that these arent devout Muslims any more than the crackpot far right "Christians" in America. But I agree they are able to hide to easily in "communities". There was a stat recently that 40% of moderate Muslims would not shop a fellow Muslim. I do think there will be a more hardline approach following this rather than the left mantra of "sitting down to tea" with them.

This idiot would have been on the radar, both here and the US (hence the spat about US leaking details 8hours before the UK press got it). However it takes around 16 people to monitor one person for 24 hours - there simply aren't the resources to manage this for everyone who may be a threat. Also, there are attacks foiled every single week. When they come out in the press it was normally from a few months ago. For those calling for tighter restrictions think on - do you want your bag searching airport style every time you go on a train, a tube, somewhere where there are a lot of people? We pay the price for freedom occasionally.

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

Virginia Campbell — Wed, 24 May 2017 17:18:12 GMT

I'm not an IRA sympathiser (unlike Jeremy Corbyn) but I think it's generally agreed that the policy of internment without trial backfired a bit in Northern Ireland. Locking somebody up, indefinitely (possibly for decades under your plan- when could you say that the threat from extremists had subsided to a low level?) without saying why and with no trial is a pretty inflammatory thing to do.

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 24 May 2017 16:49:10 GMT

The point is that the law needs to be changed to allow it (well perhaps not the leaky boat bit)! I would be fairly confident that existing emergency powers would enable them being rounded up and interned until the security situation allows their safe release - how did they manage this with the IRA or German sympathisers in the wars, they weren't convicted and imprisoned? After all they're not on the radar because they went to the local shop and bought some sweets, they're on it because they have done something that has attracted attention! These people don't deserve the protection of the law.

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

Bob Russell — Wed, 24 May 2017 16:04:37 GMT

If there was enough evidence to detain him then he would have been detained presumably. If he had not committed any offence beyond shouting that the caliphate would rule the world and Isil is good then I doubt space would be made for him at Her Majesty's pleasure.

There was a protest march where pro-Isil supporters. I would like to see them loaded on a leaky boat and set off across the Bay of Biscay. the law does not allow this, perhaps a good thing!

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 24 May 2017 15:44:06 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"] We live in a country where evidence is required before action is taken. [/quote]If he is on the radar surely that means there was enough evidence to be observing him - they didn't pluck him from fresh air, so there's enough to detain him (and others in a similar situation) under emergency provisions in a situation where the security level is critical.

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

Bob Russell — Wed, 24 May 2017 15:27:27 GMT

The Imam at his mosque has suggested the bomber "had shown him “the face of hate” when he gave a talk warning on the dangers of so-called Islamic State."

This loser was apparently already on the radar of security forces so he may already have been reported to the authorities. We live in a country where evidence is required before action is taken. His family is in Libya so a visit there would be expected.

Part of the price we have to pay to live in a broadly free society is that losers like this can cause damage and hurt!

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 24 May 2017 14:58:09 GMT

This will not end until the Muslim population takes the problem in hand itself. Its not enough for a few leaders/scholars to condemn terrorism, the majority who are as horrified by the rest of us have to take action. I think its a fair bet a high proportion know who the perpetrators are and even if they wouldn't commit such atrocities themselves they sympathise with their cause.

Random revenge attacks by right wing sympathisers on innocent Muslims sicken me as much as the jihadist outrages themselves, but they need to give the intelligence to the police, until then they will be, rightly or wrongly, viewed by some as all tarred with the same brush and open house for revenge and I will have little sympathy.

Equally given how many of these jihadists are known to the intelligence services and on their radar, until such time that more assistance comes from the Muslim community at large, given they can't keep track of every single individual, how long will it be before all suspects, hate preachers and their associates are interned indefinitely like the IRA or deported under special orders so they are at least out of the field of play? F**k their human rights they lost those with the death of the first innocent person as the result of their pathetic cause. Drastic times call for drastic action.

Sorry to sound like the ghost of Wynne but there seems to be serious failings in the responsibility of the Muslim community at large and with the response of our intelligence/security services.

RE: Manchester - is anyone else tired of the same old platitudes?

Bob Russell — Wed, 24 May 2017 14:32:43 GMT

I have to say that President Trump has the best term for these people - losers!

Failing human beings influenced by warped people that have failed to achieve whatever bizarre beliefs they have by any other means!

731 million Europeans have not been killed or injured by terrorism. Fear is perhaps understandable but statistically these we face far greater risks when we drive a car or ride a bike.

I cannot start to contemplate how the parents of the children feel. I have a minor panic attack when my eldest son drives to Cornwall or gets on his motorbike for a trip down the road.

I was impressed and even proud of the behaviour shown by so many people that attended and helped the injured and lost. It shows most people are fundamentally good and a few extremists will achieve nothing.

I cannot see how much could have been done to prevent this happening, hindsight is a wonderful thing but we live in a society that allows us to walk freely down the road where and when we choose.

I will not be terrorised and will continue to treat people as I find them. I will like nice people and dislike the occasional nasty one! I won't pray but I will respect those that choose to according to whatever religion or none. I will not self-indulgently mourn for people I don't know but have great sympathy for them. I would do anything within my power to help those affected as I would hope others would treat me had I lost my family members.