Seriousness of the profession

RE: Seriousness of the profession

Wren — Fri, 05 May 2017 09:22:10 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]There is no comparison and it is a conceit to think there is[/quote]

And making a humourous statement (indicated by the smiley, and the words 'funnily enough'...) based on a sweeping generalisation made by a doctor during an interview is not the same as believing that the two jobs are in anyway comparable. Plenty of people interpreted and appreciated the comment in the spirit in which it was written. Even my doctor friends thought that it was amusing.

RE: Seriousness of the profession

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Fri, 05 May 2017 08:40:51 GMT

I heard a doctor on the radio speak of his experience as a junior doctor when a young man in a motorcycle accident , who was talking to him on arrival at A&E , later died of an undiagnosed ruptured spleen. He had never forgotten him and had to come to terms with what might have been had he spotted it. It brought it home to me that whatever stress we may feel on misdiagnosing and losing an animal bears no relation in magnitude to this.

RE: Seriousness of the profession

Chris Milligan — Fri, 05 May 2017 05:56:11 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]There is no comparison [/quote]

Analogy is not the same as comparison, and I do believe there are certain owners for whom - whether or not you think it's "right", their pets or at least the concept of having pets are/is akin to children

RE: Seriousness of the profession

J G Wray — Thu, 04 May 2017 19:15:29 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]Funninly enough I heard a paediatric consultant on the television last night describing neonatal work as 'the holy grail of medicine' - he said it's pure detective work without the luxury of a patient who can describe their own symptoms. In other words the holy grail of human medicine would appear to be veterinary medicine!! [/quote]

How long would the misanthropes on this list last having to deal with real parents rather than "animal-parents"? How long would any of us last without the treatment options we have? There is no comparison and it is a conceit to think there is

RE: Seriousness of the profession

Wren — Thu, 04 May 2017 10:30:09 GMT

[quote user="Chris Milligan"]Take a step into a paediatric department (probably a more apt analogy for the work we do).[/quote]

Funninly enough I heard a paediatric consultant on the television last night describing neonatal work as 'the holy grail of medicine' - he said it's pure detective work without the luxury of a patient who can describe their own symptoms. In other words the holy grail of human medicine would appear to be veterinary medicine!!

RE: Seriousness of the profession

J G Wray — Thu, 04 May 2017 08:55:57 GMT

For those of you with a stick up your back, have a look at this

http://www.beechhousevets.com/index.php/component/k2/item/13-jamie-crittall

and the rest of the staff as well

Jamie is also this person

http://www.virtualrecall.com/about-us/

In other words he has a B2C web presence and a B2B web presence

RE: Seriousness of the profession

Chris Milligan — Thu, 04 May 2017 08:17:08 GMT

Let me try again in case that seemed blunt, unwelcoming and "professional".

No. It is possible to be many things in different situations, which is part of the real art of our profession. Striding in, ignoring the animal and dictating to Mrs. Jones what is wrong with her cat and what she should do is generally, at best, perceived as "Just the way Mr. (or Ms.) so and so is". At worse it comes across as uncaring, jaded, arrogant and dismissive. Which it usually is in my experience. Like it or not our job is to convince people to allow us to practice medicine on their pets so we and they can help them without it getting to the point where we need to be concerned about their welfare.

You want to use the human medicine analogy? Fine. In the spirit of generalisation you have described the strapped-for-time, bitter and pathologically anally-retentive orthopaedic surgeon who interacts with patients maybe twice a year. Take a step into a paediatric department (probably a more apt analogy for the work we do). Staff wear colourful scrubs, play fancy dress and aim to keep children as happy as possible in a miserable setting. Been to your local hospice recently? I can bet the doctors are some of the most chipper and outgoing people you'll meet.

You can be approachable, friendly and outgoing in the consult room and a miserable curmudgeon back in the prep area. Frankly the client doesn't really care if you want to "be yourself", they usually want someone nice.

RE: Seriousness of the profession

Chris Milligan — Thu, 04 May 2017 08:07:22 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]Does anyone else think cutesy pictures of vets cuddling animals and bios of "owns a dog called Rover" devalue the profession to a significant extent?[/quote]

No.

RE: Seriousness of the profession

J G Wray — Thu, 04 May 2017 08:03:01 GMT

[quote user="bevs2251"] Other clients have commented that they like my style as I don't faff around & waste their time with extraneous stories and anecdotes !![/quote]

There is always a temptation to hear the voices that accord with your own view and assume that absence of comments to the contrary is just that, rather than people quietly going away.

RE: Seriousness of the profession

bevs2251 — Thu, 04 May 2017 06:50:02 GMT

I agree, also. I've never been the touchy/feely type anyway, even with people. Brought up that way. Certainly, one can comment on the animal's nice coat colour or whatever, but otherwise remain professional. Had a client complain once because I "didn't make friends with the dog first" !! The client has come for my professional opinion & is spending their hard-earned money for that. No need for cooing & kissing. Other clients have commented that they like my style as I don't faff around & waste their time with extraneous stories and anecdotes !! Besides, letting an animal lick you on the face is one way of catching Salmonella !!

RE: Seriousness of the profession

Rachel Brown — Tue, 02 May 2017 18:22:32 GMT

What are people's thoughts on the proliferation of reality TV vets? Do you think you started losing client respect once the Vet School shows hit the TV? The curtain was lifted!

RE: Seriousness of the profession

Martin Hamilton — Tue, 02 May 2017 17:45:47 GMT

Personally I think there is more "art" to this aspect of being a vet and less of a correct answer.

As for the social media aspect of it, I don't think it is overly detrimental to the profession to state that you like animals - though this should go without saying. I would say however that comapred to peers that work in the US and Canada, their practice bio's are much more formal - then again the profession is held in much higher regard there, with much more respect for vets and the hard work they put into their profession. Whether one is the cause of the other, I don't really know.

In terms of consultations, I think a lot of it has to do with emotional intelligence and reading the owner, the pet, and what kind of interaction will get the client most on board with treatment/give the animal the best outcome. You have stern clients that want hard facts, a very cold and clinical exam etc, but on the other hand you have the young family who come in with their new puppy that want to feel welcomed and to feel like their puppy is also a big part of your life, and love it when the vet compliments the pet, includes small talk with the noisy annoying kids etc. I have made the mistake of even hinting some emotion during a PTS, when the owner got very upset that I even showed emotion, because "I didn't even know him [their dog], how dare I pretend I had a clue about what they'd been through". Admittedly PTS's are a tough situation, but it made me realise just how different every clients needs were, and how you have to adapt on a case by case basis. So in all honesty I think both questions are very different, with differing views.

Personally I don't own any pets because I live in a flat where pets aren't allowed, and I don't have the time to care for one anyway thanks to work. Although I would love to, and would like to have one one day, I would like to think that just because I didn't have a pet picture on my practice bio that people would be discouraged from seeing me

RE: Seriousness of the profession

Clive Ansell — Tue, 02 May 2017 11:33:34 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]I never received a complaint from a client saying the vet was too soppy but I had a few where the client thought the vet did not care . [/quote]

A colleague did very recently, she had a client moan that he didn't pay such high fees for the vet to dote over his French Bulldog puppy, he just wanted it seen and treated and he would give all the fuss and attention he wanted too himself.

Seems we're damned either sometimes

RE: Seriousness of the profession

Bob Russell — Tue, 02 May 2017 11:22:18 GMT

I tend to interact with my patients in a similar way to my own pets. A happy, relaxed patient that pulls the owner into the consulting room is easier to deal with than a terrified one. I tend to get more sense out of a relaxed owner than a tense one!

Not unprofessional to do so IMO. Dogs get a treat at the end of a consultation, most are expected to do a minor party trick such as giving a paw!

This sort of handling is really 'animal management' and quite appropriate. Cooing over cuddly patients is left to other staff members!

RE: Seriousness of the profession

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Tue, 02 May 2017 10:05:17 GMT

I agree that excessive coochy coo img and terminology like fur baby is nauseating and does not sound professional but many clients do like to know that their vet likes animals and appreciates their bond with their pet. We assess our clients and tailor the consultation accordingly and if David was a client I would soon see that he was not going to appreciate me talking to his dog and would be businesslike whereas if a client like myself came in I would be more relaxed and informal though still science based. Horses for courses which is the art of practice and empathy is undervalued by those who do not possess it.

I never received a complaint from a client saying the vet was too soppy but I had a few where the client thought the vet did not care .

I agree the vets and nurses photo and CV needs to be brief and relevant and I do not really care if my vet can cycle up Everest.

RE: Seriousness of the profession

Iain Richards — Tue, 02 May 2017 08:45:03 GMT

I'm with Arlo on this one. David raised a very valid point and there are indeed two aspects to it. There is, as George stated, that crucial Human-Animal bond that we mess with at peril to our professional lives. It is there for everyone, the child with the small pet, the lonely person with the cat, the farmer with his herd. The art of being a vet is, frankly, to exploit that bond so we can make a living and improve animal wellbeing. (Art now being replaced by "marketing yourself"). I don't particularly like small lap-dogs, but I have trained myself to be nice to them and to be caring. Every now and then, I meet one that goes against type and it's a pleasure.

What I think David is referring to is the increasing tendency to have animals as accessories to a lifestyle. Nothing new I suspect (e.g. Trikki Woo) but it seems more pronounced, dare I say it, related to social media postings. Selfies with pets, re-tweeting or sharing posts, "So cute" have exacerbated this. I've made the point before, anyone in the profession should think twice before posting or reposting animal related posts, especially the deformed animals. Where I think we need to act is to convince owners that their animal should be allowed to behave as an animal, not as a cabbage-patch doll.

RE: Seriousness of the profession

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 01 May 2017 21:22:25 GMT

Honestly I think I'm going to have to apply for a proof-reading job at that paper...

RE: Seriousness of the profession

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 01 May 2017 21:20:23 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

"Another day at the office for me; the end of the world for them. This is cardiac surgery"

Anyone want to

1. Replace a word in that quote;

2. Then tell me cooing and cooching like an overarching mother is a professional thing to do?

[/quote]

Nichola is one of the best nurses I've known. She might be of help:

http://www.eastwoodadvertiser.co.uk/news/caring-side-of-job-appealed-to-me-1-8513877

Part of her current training, which is omitted in this brief article, is about helping the grieving situation. This doesn't start when a patient dies, it starts when we say: 'your dog has heart disease and he/she isn't going to get better'

RE: Seriousness of the profession

David Mills — Mon, 01 May 2017 21:04:03 GMT

"Another day at the office for me; the end of the world for them. This is cardiac surgery"

Anyone want to

1. Replace a word in that quote;

2. Then tell me cooing and cooching like an overarching mother is a professional thing to do?

RE: Seriousness of the profession

David Mills — Mon, 01 May 2017 21:01:03 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I'm not sure that I really get much from knowing that you like windsurfing at the weekends, unless of course I happen to like windsurfing myself, in which case I might warm to it. So I guess if you have a practice near Polzeath beach and most of your clients are surfers, it's worth saying if you're the 2017 UK surfing champion. [/quote]

Hmmm trivia quiz

What's missing from Dr Ostrum's biog?

http://www.cvcpets.com/our-doctors.pml

[/quote]

It's Charlie!

Do I win a trip to Basie?

RE: Seriousness of the profession

Braden Collins — Mon, 01 May 2017 15:36:05 GMT

Ultimately we need to sell ourselves as professionals, and people tend to buy from people they like.

People are more likely to like me if they know a bit about me, so I'll share a little bit to find the common ground. Just knowing I'm a pet owner makes people realise I understand their concerns.

I'll pick my clients in the consult room. If a farmer brings a dog in I'll behave differently to the typical frenchie owner, but those clients both want different things from me. I can't see the problem with fishing a little bit if it builds client trust and ultimately leads to better care, happier clients and higher income.

RE: Seriousness of the profession

J G Wray — Mon, 01 May 2017 14:29:41 GMT

Hmmm trivia quiz

What's missing from Dr Ostrum's biog?

http://www.cvcpets.com/our-doctors.pml

RE: Seriousness of the profession

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 01 May 2017 10:06:27 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]Does anyone else think cutesy pictures of vets cuddling animals and bios of "owns a dog called Rover" devalue the profession to a significant extent?[/quote]

What a very interesting question.

But the discussion seems to have split into two, related but distinctly separate issues: portrayal of veterinary surgeons in marketing materials, and interacting (cooing) with the pet during the consultation.

Personally, (and as a dog owner) I feel pretty neutral about whether a veterinary surgeon is pictured on a website or in a brochure hugging a dog. Certainly doesn't, for me, devalue them in some way. If anything, perhaps make me more likely to warm to them. But there are lots of ways of photographing a veterinary surgeon with a dog. You don't have to be pictured rolling around on the floor with them, and I DO think there is strong argument for VSs being pictured with patients. It reinforces what you do. It does make you appear less remote, less ivory tower.

So on this one, I would say YES, be pictured with an animal. 'With' an animal, not 'all over it'!

Personal details on the about us page? Kind of depends on how it's written. Of course, what I really want to know is what experience and qualifications you have. But whether you stick to that, or add some personal details, I think it's more about the style of writing. It's perfectly possible to write a para about skills and experience engagingly (rather than as just a stark list of qualifications).

I'm not sure that I really get much from knowing that you like windsurfing at the weekends, unless of course I happen to like windsurfing myself, in which case I might warm to it. So I guess if you have a practice near Polzeath beach and most of your clients are surfers, it's worth saying if you're the 2017 UK surfing champion.

Cooing at or addressing my dog at the consultation? Again, a personal thing, but I can't bear it. I find it patronising by proxy, in the sense that it suggests that the VS thinks I anthropomorphise / babify / have that kind of relationship with my dog. I do not. It's a dog!

But equally, I know there are lots of people who, as George says, treat their animal as a 5-7 year old child, or put it on a pedestal:

[quote user="George Cooper"]If I recall, the statistics (presumably elucidating snorts of derision from the naysayers) say that a figure of around 9% treat their animal as an object, a belonging; around 65% treat the pet as the equivalent of a 5-7 year old child, and the rest place it upon a pedestal and almost worship it.[/quote]

So surely there just isn't a right or wrong answer. Well, there is, and the right answer is to have the skill and judgement to know which approach to use for which client. Personally, I'd suggest that the best thing is surely to err on the side of caution. In other words, to focus on being warm, approachable and friendly to the CLIENT first and foremost, and only deploy the cooing if you have good grounds to think the client warms to that.

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"][quote user="George Cooper"][quote user="David Mills"]

I don't know why I bother sometimes.[/quote]

Then DON'T. Sod off instead!![/quote]

Hi George

i enjoy David's posts , yes his views aren't always the same as mine but I'd never respond like this , especially after your post here of everyone loving to see dear old George , I'm quite shocked really even more so because the point you are all attacking him for was not one he'd made

Neil[/quote]

Knowing George, and bearing in mind the exclamation marks, I very much suspect that wasn't written as caustically as it appeared.

All in all, I still think that the tendency for VSs to style themselves 'vets' rather than 'veterinary surgeons' is a more important factor. 'Veterinary surgeon' is a meatier title than 'vet'. It somehow has more gravitas.

So, if I was preparing the copy for a VS website/brochure, it would:

Use 'veterinary surgeon' in full in titles, and in the majority of body copy, except where it becomes too cumbersome, whereupon I'd abbreviate sparingly.
Focus primarily on skills and qualifications of the VS.
Include photographs showing VSs with animals, but posed in a professional way.
On 'About Us' focus on experience, skills and qualifications, written in an engaging rather than clinical way.

RE: Seriousness of the profession

J G Wray — Mon, 01 May 2017 00:09:30 GMT

On the subject of solicitors, why do sharks leave solicitors alone? Professional courtesy. Boom boom!

RE: Seriousness of the profession

Utlendigur — Sun, 30 Apr 2017 23:17:29 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]I think having a relaxed attitude where the patient is more than just a number helps engaging with your client and it is more likely to lead to a successful outcome for the patient. I think cuddling, acknowledging the patient and try to be 'friends' with them fits in this category... and I enjoy it anyway, I don't think it makes me less of a professional.[/quote]

What he said...much better to have a relaxed owner, happy pet and, well, I love animals - isn't that why most of us became vets?

The thing I don't agree with is practices putting what look almost like dating profiles on their "Meet the team" pages. Clients have no need to know whereabouts a vet lives, whether or not they are married, how many children/pets, or what their hobbies are - that information is private and should not be seen as public property, it's up to the vet whether they share it with clients . Thankfully I became a locum before the practice I worked in went down this route - if not, it would have been something I would have fought against to the point of resigning. A few years ago I needed to find a solicitor for my elderly parents. The practice had biographies on their website which gave information on professional qualifications, experience and areas of expertise - nothing personal. It helped to know the solicitor concerned was a member of Solicitors for the Elderly, had many years experience of handling powers of attorney and deputyship etc - I didn't need to know whether she had a granny.