May calls June general election

RE: May calls June general election

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 07 May 2017 10:40:08 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]Figures flying about and EU behaving like children.[/quote]

I do try to double check the figures. The figure I heard was 10% EU trade to the UK (quite low isn't it) however https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/ estimates it at 9% but may be as high as 17%.

As an aside Francisco, I find a brief synopsis is useful, instead/as well as web sites, puts your point across better.

Neil

RE: May calls June general election

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 07 May 2017 10:07:46 GMT

Following from above, this position was a point specifically made by the Official Vote Leave campaign (under 'Second' scroll 3/4 way down): http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/restoring_public_trust_in_immigration_policy_a_points_based_non_discriminatory_immigration_system.html

and later called to be implemented here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/07/02/letters-eu-citizens-who-have-already-settled-in-britain-must-be/

and news from its ratification but never implemented here: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/06/boris-johnson-to-back-labour-motion-on-eu-migrants

RE: May calls June general election

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 07 May 2017 05:02:11 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

great for Francisco et al.

[/quote]

Thats not entirely correct.

We never wanted to be part of the negotiations. Because it makes our situation uncertain until they are complete and there are not safeguards in the event of a no-deal.

We never wanted T.May reciprocal agreement either. We understand the UK decided to leave the bloc so the EU has no longer influence in the UK soil. So it is the UK responsibility, the entity who took the first step, to grant us residency rights.

Remember this? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36701856 The plan was always to use us.

Our position however is this: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/06/brexit-donor-peter-hargreaves-rights-eu-nationals-theresa-may

RE: May calls June general election

David Mills — Sun, 07 May 2017 02:06:25 GMT

Golly.

Figures flying about and EU behaving like children.

A no trade deal will hit Germany very hard. Angela will deal.

Conservative majority predicted at 140. Fab.

RE: May calls June general election

Neil Wheadon — Sat, 06 May 2017 23:26:25 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]Most of the politicians involved are saying that they want to retain the rights of EU migrants (expats?) living in the UK, but until it is in black and white on the statute book there is no certainty.[/quote]

The EU are going to Brexit in 2 stages and it's logical isn't it.

Sort the divorce. The money owed is just that, until we leave in 2 years, the UK still has obligations, David Davies has acknowledged this. It's not a fine, it's our commitment, we are still members of the EU.

Sort 'the children' this is high on the agenda, by June? I'm not so sure, European Jurisdiction will need to be sorted. However it will be done first and is part of article 50, great for Francisco et al.

Only after this will a trade deal be sorted, unlike all the spin, the EU need us far less than we need them. We export 44% to the EU, the EU exports 9-17% to us. My understanding is this has nothing to do with article 50. After 2 years we're out, regardless of a trade deal.

Neil

RE: May calls June general election

Bob Russell — Sat, 06 May 2017 10:23:39 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]We bought a bottle of Brazilian 'fizzy' - actually really good to my surprise![/quote]

Ignoring the award wining English stuff then though get it quick as the frosts this year haven't helped

Neil

[/quote]

Missed this post! We drink a lot of fizzy stuff (following a Prosecco lubricated visit to Switzerland) and the price of the English stuff was outside our daily drinking budget!

RE: May calls June general election

Bob Russell — Sat, 06 May 2017 10:17:05 GMT

I probably was the one making the comment about EU nationals being able to leave. This, taken out of context is not indicating my views at all!

Any EU national unhappy with their working lives in the UK has the ability to leave for greener pastures. There is a demand for vets around the world!

The UK restricting EU nationals coming to work and reside here would be disastrous and I am sure the government is perfectly aware of that fact.

I don't accept the term hysteria either! Anyone settled in the UK, home, family and workwise, should have their position clarified without delay. It is only fair and decent!

There are places fanning panic and fear and this includes some that are winding up EU nationals with comments suggesting a loss of rights and in extremes, deportation!

None of this has even been discussed between the EU and the UK. It should have been but I believe Ms May when she says it can be resolved by the end of June. I have disliked a lot of what she did at the Home Office but it was turned from a basket case to moderately efficient under her supervision. I have also found that when she says she will do something she always does!

The response by Eurocrats to this date is to say it is unrealistic and to make impossible demands in what appears to be a blocking tactic.

EU nationals that have moved to the UK to study or work should have rights that match British citizens. If the UK does leave the ECJ then there cannot be one set of laws for one person and another for someone else.

The EU have also made it clear that they will not accept bits of deals, just the whole thing. Delay - EU led.

Five years resident and people can opt for a British passport anyway and have dual nationality and the best of both worlds.

People are being wound up by heresay and posturing. This is very unfair IMO.

All said the UK is fundamentally a decent country and unfairness is unacceptable to the vast majority of 'normal' people!

RE: May calls June general election

Thomas Johnson — Sat, 06 May 2017 08:50:55 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

I have resisted entering the fray on this thread as I really couldn't be arsed getting into more political arguments as is is inevitable it will end the same as every other thread on Brexit with a slanging match. But I fail to see how Francisco is getting hysterical, however I wouldn't blame if he did.

Someone said EU citizens will be free to leave but its not that simple is it? People like Francisco have invested in remaining in the UK and have grown roots which are not that easy to just pull up and go. Some have much stronger roots with their homes and own businesses and children in education. I would be hysterical if I was in the situation of not knowing what was going to happen and not being able to make any plans.

[/quote]

I have also been unsure whether I could make a useful contribution to this thread, or would just end of fanning the flames, but whatever your view on whether the UK should have decided to remain in the EU or not I don't understand how you can't have some understanding for someone who might have their life turned upside down by the decisions that are made in the upcoming negotiations. Most of the politicians involved are saying that they want to retain the rights of EU migrants (expats?) living in the UK, but until it is in black and white on the statute book there is no certainty. If you have made a life here, have a partner/job/children, there's going to be some degree of worry that your life is going to change for the worse, and while the chances of that happening seem quite small, they are not non-existent.

RE: May calls June general election

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 05 May 2017 18:14:06 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

My days.

You really are hysterical.

[/quote]I have resisted entering the fray on this thread as I really couldn't be arsed getting into more political arguments as is is inevitable it will end the same as every other thread on Brexit with a slanging match. But I fail to see how Francisco is getting hysterical, however I wouldn't blame if he did.

As for you telling someone to grow up DM, pots and kettles spring to mind.

Anyways someone has already used the H word so Godwin's Law has been invoked - time to end the discussion.

RE: May calls June general election

Bob Russell — Thu, 04 May 2017 09:42:19 GMT

Ms May is 'doing politics' and is at the start of an election so does what a leader does!

She is also right!

The EU are making threats, madly bringing up new and bigger debts (odd for one of the biggest contributor over the years). EU politicians have started to interfere in the French election. Should be keeping quiet during our election not trying to undermine a party leader.

They obviously don't realise how counterproductive it is to get peoples backs up with constant threats.

Any advance on €100 billion?

RE: May calls June general election

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 03 May 2017 19:22:30 GMT

The EU asking for astronomic sums, that's not *willing* to get an agreement in my book.

Now TM comes on TV accusing them of dirty tricks, what was the purpose of such statement? More votes for an election she didnt need and she already *had* in the bag?

What's the definition of *hysteria* J G Wray?

RE: May calls June general election

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 03 May 2017 14:49:38 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]We bought a bottle of Brazilian 'fizzy' - actually really good to my surprise![/quote]

Ignoring the award wining English stuff then though get it quick as the frosts this year haven't helped

Neil

RE: May calls June general election

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 03 May 2017 14:40:49 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

We bought a bottle of Brazilian 'fizzy' - actually really good to my surprise!

[/quote]

I'm glad you enjoyed it: http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/brazil/index_en.htm (please don't take it seriously!)

RE: May calls June general election

Bob Russell — Wed, 03 May 2017 14:39:03 GMT

We bought a bottle of Brazilian 'fizzy' - actually really good to my surprise!

RE: May calls June general election

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 03 May 2017 14:32:24 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Unless discussions and attitudes start to be more sensible I would prefer to walk away, get the insecurity settled and deal with the consequences. Two years or more of constant sniping is too long!

[/quote]

Does it not like that this is what the EU is pursuing? I find the no-deal situation highly appealing for the bloc, they'd be left with just one problem: us.

[quote]

I did a non-EU shop at the weekend!!

[/quote]

My 'hysteria' levels are not that high yet. I'm still drinking ale.

RE: May calls June general election

Bob Russell — Wed, 03 May 2017 14:24:45 GMT

I agree that the form is unsuitable but it is the form that has to be filled in! It is a one sized fits all form, not really designed for EU applicants.

Each different group of applicants fills in different parts of the form.

The difficulties that have been highlighted in the newspaper cases have resulted largely by a failure to provide the required evidence and the limited competence of the staff processing the applications plus the lack of a suitable standard rejection letter!

Unfortunately the Home Office have set up a system that does not allow clarification. Applicants are not contacted to clarify answers and facts, they just get rejected then are forced to reapply, often without being given the right information to make a further application valid.

Even if the EU continues to clown about, there is no question of mass deportations. Nor would it be acceptable to limit healthcare or pension rights for existing residents.

I have little doubt things will end up little different to how they are today but clearly there will be a chain of damage left along the way.

Even my younger son (almost 'suicidal' after the referendum result) is becoming anti-EU now. He completed a degree in the Netherlands!

What saddens me is this behaviour to frighten nations to remain in the EU is going to cause such resentment that could last a generation or more!

Hating the 'jingoism' image but the UK has never been good at being threatened and people such as me are likely to become more entrenched in anti-EU sentiment!

Unless discussions and attitudes start to be more sensible I would prefer to walk away, get the insecurity settled and deal with the consequences. Two years or more of constant sniping is too long!

I did a non-EU shop at the weekend!!

RE: May calls June general election

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 03 May 2017 14:09:42 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Ms May has made it clear that she believes a deal can be done by June.[/quote]

Brexit is like Pandora's box, the more you look the more you find

Radio 4 talked this afternoon about the European Court of Justice. One of Mrs May's red lines is to negate this, however EU residents in this country will still be under it's jurisdiction in the opinion of the EU.

Nigel Lawson was wheeled out again, arguing we should ignore it all and simply walk away in 2 years. Well hopefully he'll be flung out of France where he is living at the moment

Neil

RE: May calls June general election

vs0u — Wed, 03 May 2017 13:01:26 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]If that was true, we wouldn't be having conversations about the 85 page form. [/quote]

I don't get the relevance of the form. This form is not aimed at EU citizens surely? No agreement has yet been reached so you aren't going to be able to get any assurances yet. The rights of EU citizens are going to stay the same until we leave in just under 2 years. At some point an agreement will be reached over the rights of those EU citizens living here already. If it is decided that they need to apply for some kind of permit to remain, new forms and rules will then apply and there will have to be a change over period to allow people to comply. In the case of those who have already been here for years and are settled, they will almost certainly be allowed to remain anyway. There are going to be millions of people in that situation (including some of my family). They certainly won't throw everyone out overnight. In terms of healthcare and benefits rights, these already apply to non EU citizens with permanent residence status so I can't see that it would be any worse for EU citizens after any new rules come in.

I think you will just have to wait and see what is agreed, but it's not worth worrying about at this stage. You may have to jump through a few hoops but most likely that will be all. Worst case scenario you will still have the whole of Europe open to you unlike us unfortunate Brits who won't be able to move anywhere warm and sunny any more!

RE: May calls June general election

Bob Russell — Wed, 03 May 2017 12:23:54 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

Ok. Ill leave it there http://ukandeu.ac.uk/calling-our-bluff-time-for-the-uk-to-honour-its-promises-to-eu-27-and-uk-citizens/

[/quote]

Ms May has made it clear that she believes a deal can be done by June. Not sure how that article changes that.

Clearly it would be unacceptable for EU residents to have more rights than a UK citizen. Why should that continue?

At present a UK citizen has to jump through hoops and pay out thousands for a non-EU spouse (such as mine) to settle in the UK. An EU resident can bring a spouse in with limited paperwork and entirely free of charge. (I accept a UK national in France can bring in a non-EU spouse with similar rights but how long would that continue?)

Really is time for people in power to grow up and stop throwing accusations and threats.

If not hard Brexit it is with all the damage that will do for the UK and EU27.

RE: May calls June general election

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 02 May 2017 22:54:08 GMT

They're all professional politicians. It's quite possible the EU are trying to destabilise Mrs May to increase the European loving vote and so reduce her majority and hence bargaining power. Did I really write that

Neil

RE: May calls June general election

David Mills — Tue, 02 May 2017 20:56:11 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

When your clients leave your practice thus they are no longer allowed to use your services, are you applying 'punitive terms' to them? Or are they still allowed the same perks as the ones who stay and pay their dues?

[/quote]

My days.

You really are hysterical.

What utter nonsense.

This sense of entitlement and "we're the most affected" by eu migrants is really starting to wear thin. Yes you are bargaining chips, just as UK migrants are for the EU. Just as trade deals - which will affect far more people, more significantly - are. Get over yourselves. All these lefty cry baby antics are achieving the opposite of what you want. In short, stop whinging "something must be done" and make your case in an adult way.

RE: May calls June general election

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 02 May 2017 17:20:28 GMT

Ok. Ill leave it there http://ukandeu.ac.uk/calling-our-bluff-time-for-the-uk-to-honour-its-promises-to-eu-27-and-uk-citizens/

RE: May calls June general election

Bob Russell — Tue, 02 May 2017 17:08:11 GMT

I fail to understand why someone so intelligent is bordering on hysteria!

Going on about an 80 odd page form that an EU national has to fill only a few pages is not moving any discussion forwards. A tax return is a hundred times more complicated and that is seen as a necessary evil (even if an accountant has to be paid to complete it).

The form is simple to fill in, it does require evidence that the applicant meets the requirements and with the possible exception of the medical insurance oddity anyone should be able to fill it in themselves.

Where people have had applications refused it is because they have not provided evidence. The case where child applicants were rejected because no evidence was provided that they were UK residents, was sorted when the parents sent in some school reports!

I hope a streamlined system with better guidance will be the result of the discussions.

If the EU does not want a deal then they should just get on and say so! If things are so bad then EU residents in the UK have the choice to go home.

So much is being blown out of proportion and people are getting caught up with the hysterical nonsense being banded about.

I do wonder if the aggressive rhetoric from the EU is a sign of weakness. A strong opponent should be talking not posturing.

My clients seem almost universally pro-Brexit. I was not at the referendum but am now!

(I five star or don't star at all so not me!)

RE: May calls June general election

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 02 May 2017 16:51:32 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

applying punitive terms on Britain for Brexit

[/quote]

RE: May calls June general election

Malcolm Ness — Tue, 02 May 2017 16:48:25 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]without loss of rights for most of us settled here is what we would like to know.[/quote]

Francisco, you rant at your one-star respondent and while I have some sympathy, I can't be the only individual to find your "EU good, UK bad" mantra increasingly tedious. If Juncker and friends insist on applying punitive terms on Britain for Brexit then it is naive in the extreme to think that the situation relating to incoming European economic migrants will be the only part of the EU treaty to survive post-brexit.