Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

Danny Chambers — Mon, 10 Apr 2017 11:20:07 GMT

Great article from Jack Reece last week about the issues with EMS and assessing the students on EMS placements.

https://www.vettimes.co.uk/article/advantages-of-seeing-practice/

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

Anthony Todd — Mon, 10 Apr 2017 10:50:13 GMT

What about the others in the UK and abroad? Cambridge? London? Australia?

What's the failure rate?

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

Wren — Mon, 10 Apr 2017 08:36:23 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I graduated in 1999 from Edinburgh. We finished lectures in 4th year and had just rotations in final year, which we had to pass to graduate, with all practical final exams. [/quote]

Well it doesn't totally surprise me that our lecturers told us we were the only ones in the country doing it if the other place was Edinburgh!!

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 09 Apr 2017 20:42:26 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]I think most, if not all, of them have gone that way now, but don't quote me on it. I was at Glasgow. At the time (2000) it was the only place to do all practical final exams.[/quote]

I graduated in 1999 from Edinburgh. We finished lectures in 4th year and had just rotations in final year, which we had to pass to graduate, with all practical final exams.

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 07 Apr 2017 22:35:02 GMT

We did OSCE's as part of our finals in 2006 RVC. Taking a shoe off a horse, tipping sheep, IV cannula, suturing etc etc. I was one of very few to get the show off in the 5 mins.

I loved them.

I remember one station in a practice one in 3rd or 4th year where we had to select and put on appropriate PPE to give chemo drugs to an animal. Along with some usual items, were things like hard hats and ski masks. One of the American students put a blue plastic shoe cover on his head....

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

Scarlett Creasey — Fri, 07 Apr 2017 19:59:13 GMT

At RVC the OSCEs are as Wren described really, 18 stations of all sorts from suturing, anaesthetic machine set up, bandaging horses, physical exams, milk sampling and consultation skills to name a few.

That exam is at the very end after rotations and EMS along with a couple of written papers also.

From third year half of our exams are case based, what do you deduct from the information they give, possible diagnoses and what you'd go forward and do next. These are often accompanied by a couple of communication or ethical questions to make you think other than clinical knowledge. It's quite challenging :)

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

Anthony Todd — Fri, 07 Apr 2017 17:50:55 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]i think all of them have practical exams in the final year...[/quote]

Yes we did, sort of, but they were called "vivas" and weren't separate, so only in final year.

We had written and vivas added together gave a pass, post or fail in each subject.

I had to do a pathology post 'cos I described a liver slide as kidney, very comprehensively.....

Surgery and medicine were nowhere near as practical as you describe, just oral sort of discussions with no animal.

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

ruths — Fri, 07 Apr 2017 16:54:42 GMT

i think all of them have practical exams in the final year...

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

Anthony Todd — Fri, 07 Apr 2017 14:35:37 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]I was at Glasgow.[/quote]

I'll add them to my "good" list! [mind you, thinking about the vets I employed, it should have been there]

Do you think it made you a better new graduate?

Did any/many fail that final year? [having passed the academic stuff]

Do you know of any other Unis adopting this practical exam measure?

Had you done much EMS [as detailed sort of by me] prior to uni and when did you start?

What percentage of "being a practising vet can't be taught in lectures?

As Michael Woodhouse has shown, you can increase your expertise after graduation but you really need the practical and personal skills on day one....

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

Wren — Fri, 07 Apr 2017 14:23:23 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Do all the universities in the UK do the finals like that?

My guess is that you went to Bristol or Liverpool [don't know about the Scottish ones]

[/quote]

I think most, if not all, of them have gone that way now, but don't quote me on it. I was at Glasgow. At the time (2000) it was the only place to do all practical final exams.

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

Anthony Todd — Fri, 07 Apr 2017 13:58:26 GMT

[quote user="Wren"] I have had to do every single one of those things (and most others from my finals) in practice since graduating. Many times.[/quote]

Do all the universities in the UK do the finals like that?

My guess is that you went to Bristol or Liverpool [don't know about the Scottish ones]

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

Wren — Fri, 07 Apr 2017 12:32:33 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Students are examined on what the lecturers know and what the lecturers, therefore, think students ougha know NOT what practicioners, and the real post-grad practice world, know they will need to know.[/quote]

I suspect things have changed a little. Even 17 years ago when I graduated our final exams were entirely practical (written exams at the end of 4th year, practical at the end of 5th year). We had to take histories and perform clinical exams, as well as look at radiographs and down microscopes. I don't remember much about it but I do remember having to examine a dog, diagnose its heart murmur and suggest sensible further investigations and potential treatments; spot erysipelas in an abattoir pig carcass; perform a colic exam/work up and demonstrate removing a shoe (didn't have to actually take the shoe off, but had to pick out the right tools and explain step by step how we would use them). There were about 15 other stations in the same vein.... I have had to do every single one of those things (and most others from my finals) in practice since graduating. Many times.

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

Anthony Todd — Fri, 07 Apr 2017 11:09:30 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

Well then he shouldn't pass his exams,surely?

[/quote]

We're back to my point!

Students are examined on what the lecturers know and what the lecturers, therefore, think students ougha know NOT what practicioners, and the real post-grad practice world, know they will need to know.

The most useful lecturers I had were practitioners who had turned to lecturing.

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

Stephen Courtney — Fri, 07 Apr 2017 07:56:07 GMT

Well then he shouldn't pass his exams,surely?

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 06 Apr 2017 19:05:59 GMT

[quote user="Chris Milligan"]Ok. But...and don't take this the wrong way but are you sure your own knowledge upon which you're basing your questions is up to date and correct?[/quote]

I don't want to come across as too smug and arrogant, but I think so. I finished a 2 year masters in bovine reproduction last year (via Liverpool vet school) so I expect a vet student to be able to recognise a CL and a follicle on the scanner. To know the word 'endometritis. when he scoops a handful of purelent material out of the vagina of a cow 3 weeks calved. I expect him to be able to classify that, give me the risk factors and likely agents involved. I expect him to know how he'd treat that.

This is bread and butter stuff for farm vets that I'm doing every day (he said he wanted to do farm work after qualifying - it's not like he's not even interested in this).

Other things were sheep abortion, BVD, Johne's. We're a pretty well qualified and up to date team - not stuck in the dark ages. At this point they have finished lectures and are on practical rotations....

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

Iain Richards — Thu, 06 Apr 2017 15:02:19 GMT

Is the snowflake generation needy only because they've been raised that way?

Anyway, get any 4th yr students you have to go to Lancaster this July (7th - 9th) and learn some resilience! http://spvs.org.uk/lancaster/

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

Seadna — Thu, 06 Apr 2017 11:54:49 GMT

[quote user="Chris Milligan"]Might be best to speak to the university to find out what the students should know at this point then raise with them if you think students are falling down. The veterinary curriculum is very loose and is only really confirmed by the RCVS in the form of day one and year one competencies which makes it hard to know how you're doing until you've graduated[/quote]

The only real basis students have for measuring their abilities is by comparison with their peers. In my opinion, if Michael has had 10 good students and one crap one, it's because the crap one is crap, not because of a failing on the university's part.

I'm a member of the snowflake generation (just about I think) and even I get a bit weary of the kid-gloves treatment young people seem to expect these days.

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

Anthony Todd — Thu, 06 Apr 2017 09:24:03 GMT

[quote user="Chris Milligan"]Might be best to speak to the university to find out what the students should know at this point then raise with them if you think students are falling down. [/quote]

Might be even better to speak to practising vets to find out what the students should know at the start of the course and raise it with the universities......

[quote user="Chris Milligan"]I remember as a student rocking up to more than one...shall we say oldschool... practice to be told Cambridge grads were[/quote]

Ah, that struck a chord.

I remember a dinovet colleague uttering, often, "God save us from the academics!"

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

Chris Milligan — Thu, 06 Apr 2017 06:48:43 GMT

Also as Iain said it's amazing how much students improve between fourth and final year.

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

Chris Milligan — Thu, 06 Apr 2017 06:45:51 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"] do quiz them hard but the deficiencies are across the board and not just one limited area.[/quote]

Ok. But...and don't take this the wrong way but are you sure your own knowledge upon which you're basing your questions is up to date and correct?

Sure we've all had crap students - but they are just that and the purpose of being a student is to be taught. They may be an academic. They may be better suited to government work.

Might be best to speak to the university to find out what the students should know at this point then raise with them if you think students are falling down. The veterinary curriculum is very loose and is only really confirmed by the RCVS in the form of day one and year one competencies which makes it hard to know how you're doing until you've graduated.

I remember as a student rocking up to more than one...shall we say oldschool... practice to be told Cambridge grads were clueless and useless by their own metrics, only to find the qualified vet's methods decidely clueless and useless as well. Not suggesting this is where you lie but as ever check your own house before you chuck a rock at someone else's.

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

Stephen Courtney — Wed, 05 Apr 2017 21:44:09 GMT

The most valuable things i learnt from the version of EMS we had in Zimbabwe was how to deal with clients. The academic stuff was one thing, how to use it was quite another, and I'm forever grateful to the vets who showed me the ropes and welcomed me into their practice.

I feel really embarrassed though when i see how hard kids have to work to even get into vet school here. I kind of fell into it, and for the most shallow of reasons and am entirely fortunate that i both like the job and have turned out to be OK at it. hopefully.....

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

Anthony Todd — Wed, 05 Apr 2017 18:53:45 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]I have had many students show an interest and quiz me on my life as a locum, and an increasing number express an interest in wanting to take that career route rather than being employed as a corporate drone/clone/android/robot (take your pick).[/quote]

My route [if I was graduating in the UK] and ideally, so not paid to become a vet as it was in NZ.

Plenty of experience in/at vet clinics as soon as you can talk and ask, ask, ask, do, do, do. Handle animals!!

Work with horses, in stables and learn, watch, listen, ask. learn learn. Handle animals!

Try and get jobs on LA farms etc. Handle animals!

[Pigs and poultry come with specialisation so sorry they come later]

Get good enough A levels.

Graduate.

Work at a large charity until you've done 100 B/s and 200 C/S and some consults ask, ask, ask.

And a few bowel ops and the odd orthopaedics.

Most old hands, if you don't tell them that your lecturer said "......" so "....." will tell you all the tricks and tips.

Locum until you find THE job for you. don't worry, if you do the above the boss will welcome you.

Be happy, best career in the world!

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

Danny Chambers — Tue, 04 Apr 2017 20:15:00 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Do any practices allow students to take the initial history while the vet listens?[/quote]

Frequently, I get them to take a history and carry out a clinical exam. With carefully selected cases and clients, under direct supervision, and providing I have the time of course.

[/quote]

I do exactly the same. It's amazing how quickly both their thought processes and confidence changes in a day!

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

Clive Ansell — Tue, 04 Apr 2017 17:57:17 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Do any practices allow students to take the initial history while the vet listens?[/quote]

Frequently, I get them to take a history and carry out a clinical exam. With carefully selected cases and clients, under direct supervision, and providing I have the time of course.

RE: Disappointing vet student - thoughts?

Anthony Todd — Tue, 04 Apr 2017 17:04:23 GMT

Far be it for me etc. etc. but I would suggest that EMS should be to teach students the things they "can't be taught" ie handling animals and clients. not the finer points of X-rays and diagnosis.

Sort of like an old adage "To diagnose equine lameness you have to ride the horse, not that I ever could or did", but if you don't look at ease around an animal or their owner your credibility is damaged.

The hardest thing most new grads seem to face is clients and animals, not diagnosis and treatment, apart from surgical dexterity of course, which only comes by practising , in practice.

Do any practices allow students to take the initial history while the vet listens?