The Pits

RE: The Pits

Braden Collins — Thu, 02 Mar 2017 14:04:05 GMT

We're lucky in Australia that online shopping is still in its infancy, though Amazon is coming to Australia later this year so it may all be about to change.

I imagine things like pet food will still not have a huge online market for a while as its size makes it hard to post around such a large country.

We have experienced "vet only" products change to "everyone stocks them" products before. When Comfortis was launched a few years ago as vet only, I reckon it was less than 6 months between us starting to stock it and it becoming available outside vet clinics. We dropped it pretty quickly as our preferred product as any relationship with suppliers has to be a two way street, and if they break our trust they're off our shelves.

We now recommend Bravecto, and once again they look after us well. We know people can get it elsewhere, but with a bit of bargaining we've managed to organise bonus stock and a few other benefits so we can compete with the big guys. We're on target to sell around 1500 doses this financial year, so a good partnership works well for us both.

RE: The Pits

Bob Russell — Thu, 02 Mar 2017 13:31:30 GMT

Nice that someone is getting good prices and rebates from Royal Canin. As part of a big buying group we get bu++er all and are so undercut by the internet that staff get food there rather than from us at cost!

Clearly Royal Canin in your neck of the woods are still behaving as they used to here a few years ago!

Actually quite impressed with the Virbac range so happy to make a change in recommendations.

RE: The Pits

Braden Collins — Thu, 02 Mar 2017 13:24:48 GMT

Before I say more, can I just say how nice it is to get polite disagreement without anyone pulling out a 1 star.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Braden Collins"]I'd rather companies ask what sort of incentive we would like[/quote]

Um, as a professional, should not your only incentive be that you consider, utilising your knowledge of nutrition combined with extensive practical experience, that this petfood is one of the best for the particular circumstances of this pet?

If your client asks why you recommend a food, are you honest as to why? Would you tell them "there are lots of good foods, but this one offers me the biggest kickback?"

[/quote]

I agree that number one consideration has to be what is best for the animal. If I can't differentiate, the next consideration is what's best for the business.

For example, I don't know if Hills or Royal Canin is best for the patient. We have Royal Canin as our preferred product because the Hills rep when we purchased the clinic was never available for training or advice. When we made the decision to switch to RC, we cheekily asked if they could help us out with a few things, They came to the party and we established a great relationship with them. When we purchased our second clinic, we once again approached them for a bit of "help" with signage, etc, and once again they helped out.

We get a good deal from RC - they have looked after us and provided plenty of training for our staff, we get good prices and rebates which allows us to sell the food at a competitive price, and they give great support for things like refunds when pets won't eat their food.

We still stock and sell Hills food for patients where that is appropriate, so no patient misses out because of our preferences.

I think the company in this survey has been very smart about approaching vets, as it has the potential to be a good source of new clients for them. They also know that vet's won't spend the time needed to send the clients their way without effectively paying for the time it would take the vet to "refer" them.

I would never accept payment for things I don't believe in (that's why we don't offer laser therapy, stem cell therapy, homeopathy, rose hip, etc which we know we could make a profit on), but if I believe in the product and I feel it is in the pet's best interest to use it (or there's nothing better on the market), I'm more than happy to see a few dollars in my own pocket for the effort of selling or recommending it.

RE: The Pits

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 02 Mar 2017 13:04:24 GMT

[quote user="Braden Collins"]I'd rather companies ask what sort of incentive we would like[/quote]

If your client asks why you recommend a food, are you honest as to why? Would you tell them "there are lots of good foods, but this one offers me the biggest kickback?"

RE: The Pits

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 02 Mar 2017 11:03:40 GMT

The food manufactures have identified 3 basic groups of purchasers with the odd sub-group.

1) Those who want the cheapest they can buy and want the convenience of getting it with their weekly shop: Bakers, Chum etc in the supermarket.

2) Those who don't mind paying a bit more and don't mind going a bit out of their way to find it: mid-market foods form the petshop: Burns, James Wellbeloved etc

3) Those who want the best they can get, don't mind paying and going out of their way to get it: quality lifestage diets marketed through vets.

3.1) Those who think paying a lot means a better diet but are fooled by marketing into paying for designer/attractive foods with clever TV advertising (it looks good enough for me to eat so it must be good for my pet): Sheba, Gourmet etc

RE: The Pits

Julie Innes — Thu, 02 Mar 2017 08:36:33 GMT

"We know the difference between the good food and the cheap crap, but most of our clients don't. We need to give them recommendations."

See, I'm not so sure about this. The amount of nutrition we got at vet school was woeful, and sponsored by Hill's.... Expensive doesn't necessarily mean better. My old dog had horrendous colitis with anything other than cheap and cheerful Chappie. I couldn't give you statistics or nutritional composition of any of the major brands off the top of my head!

RE: The Pits

Braden Collins — Thu, 02 Mar 2017 02:41:02 GMT

Unfortunately there's always going to be people who will sell their soul for something they don't believe in. We can never stop that, but equally it doesn't mean we can't look for opportunities to ethically get something back.

We get a lot of benefits from our food supplier, a pet insurance company, vaccine company, our preferred flea control product, our wholesaler, our PMS, local pet stores, groomers, and as many other companies as we can. We work with them as a partnership so we all benefit in different ways.

For many of these, we have approached them with an attitude of "we need this from you, what do you need back from us to make it work for us both?"

We have chosen each of these based on what we feel is best for the business and our patients.

We get to sell and promote products and services we believe in while allowing us to be very competitive on price. Everyone wins as long as it's done ethically.

I'd rather companies ask what sort of incentive we would like rather than just giving us a pile of stress balls and other useless trinkets.

RE: The Pits

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 02 Mar 2017 01:42:24 GMT

[quote user="Braden Collins"]If you couldn't/didn't stock food in your clinic, surely you're better off directing the client to a good quality food rather than expecting them to try to figure it out for themselves.[/quote]

Quite so.

I'm sure those councillors who accepted Poulson's incentives were directing their councils to a good quality architect.

RE: The Pits

Braden Collins — Thu, 02 Mar 2017 01:37:53 GMT

I still don't see a problem with what they're doing - assuming they are doing it well.

If you couldn't/didn't stock food in your clinic, surely you're better off directing the client to a good quality food rather than expecting them to try to figure it out for themselves.

If you were to head in to the supermarket and try to buy dog food as an uneducated pet owner, how do you know what is good for your pet, what the difference between the cheap and expensive stuff is, or whether you should be feeding wet or dry food? We know the difference between the good food and the cheap crap, but most of our clients don't. We need to give them recommendations.

If you can get a bit of money back for the time it takes to recommend the product and steer them in that direction, surely everyone wins.

It's no different to selling the food we stock - we get a bit of profit for recommending good quality food, the pet gets good nutrition and as a consequence is more likely to remain healthy for longer.

RE: The Pits

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 01 Mar 2017 18:59:52 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

I really don't know the name of the company. It's stated to be a "new" one.

Since so many people seem to be missing the point – it's not about which pet food you stock and sell – (and I don't sell pet food, but that's for another debate) – here's the link they sent. I'm surprised I'm the only one to have received this email – what does that say about me?

https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/newpetfoodcompany1

[/quote]

I reckon it's this one - the only 'tailor made' brand I am aware of...

https://tails.com/

RE: The Pits

Julie Innes — Wed, 01 Mar 2017 18:49:53 GMT

Well, they won't get me- I don't sell dog food at all! I don't believe there is one "best" food- it really does depend on the dog. If clients ask I'll mention some that I think are decent enough/ good for sensitive tummies/ hypoallergenic, but I'm happy for them to buy it on line. I'm not a salesman and don't have room in my waiting room for bags of food that I have to worry about going out of date!

RE: The Pits

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 01 Mar 2017 18:09:06 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

So Evelyn, are you going to let on which company? Or was it a survey on behalf of 'our client'?

[/quote]

I really don't know the name of the company. It's stated to be a "new" one.

https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/newpetfoodcompany1

RE: The Pits

Bob Russell — Wed, 01 Mar 2017 13:25:56 GMT

Moved to the Virbac food. Selling fine and only been in place for a couple of weeks. I am happy to sell a good pet food but not happy to be treated with the contempt that Royal Canin has shown.

If the internet suppliers are buying on the same terms as they claim then these companies must be selling at a large loss. Don't believe a word of it when they state we buy at the same rate and these are all loss leaders!

RE: The Pits

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 01 Mar 2017 11:58:52 GMT

Well, I can only speak for myself and I refuse to use anything that I don't believe is in the best interests of my patients. I sell Royal Canin because its as good as anything, I only have room for one brand and their customer support has been better than the others. I'm not so naive as to think my clients won't go and buy it off the internet but if it means that they're buying Royal Canin rather than Bakers then my job is half done. I'm quite sure I could live without selling pet food but if I'm not making a loss then I will continue to do so. I am nobody's puppet, I won't be bribed and profit is not my main motivation, patient care is and so long as I make a living on the way I'm happy.

RE: The Pits

Glen McIntosh — Wed, 01 Mar 2017 11:03:11 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

How low can we sink?

[/quote]

Hasn't Lonsdale been saying more or less the same thing for decades?

Dont get me wrong, I think he talks mostly tripe (and raw meaty bones), but this part of his argument always seemed to have a ring of truth to it.

RE: The Pits

Bob Russell — Wed, 01 Mar 2017 10:03:33 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Very, very, glad when other manufacturers retained their integrity and kept "vet only"[/quote]

Can you give me an example?

Anyway, back to the OP, how is this all that different from negotiating rebates and bulk-buy offers and discounts with drug companies?

[/quote]

We have just dropped Royal Canin. Even our staff can buy the food cheaper on Fetch than we can buy it from the wholesaler.

Zero integrity!

Offer me enough and my integrity is still for sale. Pets at Home 'Veterinary Approved' for crying out loud! They employ plenty of vets so easy to approve irrespective of the diet quality!

RE: The Pits

Kate Richardson — Wed, 01 Mar 2017 07:50:38 GMT

So Evelyn, are you going to let on which company? Or was it a survey on behalf of 'our client'?

RE: The Pits

Braden Collins — Wed, 01 Mar 2017 03:41:17 GMT

I might be missing something here, but if I had to choose between Royal Canin or Hills (for example), I would go with the one that provided the business with the best support and ultimately the one which landed the most money in my pocket. I don't think I could otherwise work out a reason to prefer one over the other in terms of best for my patients.

Although I'd never recommend anything to a client I didn't believe in, I don't have a problem recommending one brand over another when it leads to more profit for me and no additional cost to the owner. This of course assumes the products are otherwise equal.

RE: The Pits

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 01 Mar 2017 01:24:57 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]Anyway, back to the OP, how is this all that different from negotiating rebates and bulk-buy offers and discounts with drug companies?[/quote]w

Completely different. For one thing, I buy drugs because I need them to do my job, not because I want to flog them as a sideline. For another, bulk-buy offers and what have you apply only if I buy the stuff: for instance, say it's buy six get one free, if I decide to take the risk (or make the financial commitment if you prefer) of buying six, if and when all seven are sold I've made extra profit. For another thing, I don't recommend say doxycycline over say clindamycin because of a bigger discount!

Whereas this company is offering you wodges of money to recommend their food. Don't your clients trust you to be impartial and to actually mean it if you recommend something? If you went into this enterprise, if the client were to ask you why you recommend it, are you going to be honest and tell them?

RE: The Pits

Anthony Todd — Wed, 01 Mar 2017 00:02:26 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]Can you give me an example?[/quote]

Oh no, have they all gone to general sale? Royal Canin too??

"which is all about what kind of bribe I would prefer, to recommend some new pet food."

Obviously totally different, in theory anyway. One is to buy [drugs] at the best price by survey and negotiation the other is to recommend something, and be paid for it, independent of quality or experience.

RE: The Pits

Rob Loxley — Tue, 28 Feb 2017 23:29:05 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Very, very, glad when other manufacturers retained their integrity and kept "vet only"[/quote]

Can you give me an example?

Anyway, back to the OP, how is this all that different from negotiating rebates and bulk-buy offers and discounts with drug companies?

RE: The Pits

J G Wray — Tue, 28 Feb 2017 20:13:30 GMT

We go for co branding on all food and discount on products we use in our Healthy Pet Club

RE: The Pits

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Tue, 28 Feb 2017 19:51:06 GMT

We fell for it with Hills and then we fell for it again with Frontline. We as a profession we're the double duped

RE: The Pits

Anthony Todd — Tue, 28 Feb 2017 19:10:53 GMT

[quote user="Jill Butterworth"]

It clearly works. Back in the Jurassic Period, Hills took out practically the entire veterinary profession plus lay staff for supper in a pub. It must have been 30 years ago, and I still have some subliminal brand loyalty ;)

[/quote]

The profession we're absolutely screwed. It was presented as being a solely vet. only food, would never ever,ever, ever, be sold anywhere else, carefully constituted etc, etc, so it had lots advantages etc. etc.

The vets got it going and, [at one stage abbeyVET was the biggest supplier in Europe] [to be fair I never wanted to be a "grocer", my partner, RRA was in favour] so then Hills, having got it nicely promoted, gave it to pet shops and supermarkets.

Very, very, glad when other manufacturers retained their integrity and kept "vet only".

One of the greatest veterinary industry betrayals of all time.

Crikey, a pub lunch was a small price to pay; fractions of a penny per £1000s of sales.

RE: The Pits

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 28 Feb 2017 18:27:56 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

I've just received an email inviting me to take part in a survey... which is all about what kind of bribe I would prefer, to recommend some new pet food.

How low can we sink?

[/quote]

Go along for th ride for a bit, let them woo you with a few meals etc, then politely decline?

[/quote]

It's much more direct than that. It's more "you recommend our food, squire, we give you money, in what form would you like it?"