Make the veterinary profession great again!

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

J G Wray — Thu, 11 May 2017 22:39:36 GMT

[quote user="Richard Stephenson"]

I have seen many instances when just one or two council members by determined but reasoned argument changed decisions.

[/quote]

....in secret? Will Dr Chambers be allowed to talk about the way RCVS is behaving?

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

Richard Stephenson — Thu, 11 May 2017 19:40:14 GMT

Danny,

Congratulations on your election. I enjoyed most of my eight year term on Council although on occasion it was the most incredibly stressful thing in my life (and being in full time equine practice that is saying something!). Probably now that Council members don't have to involve themselves with the disciplinary side of things, life will be a little more peaceful for you - I hope so.

Despite some of the comments made here the Council is populated by (on the whole) extremely intelligent and thoughtful people and served by very dedicated staff. My advice is listen carefully to more experienced members but be prepared to fight when you believe a matter of principle is at stake. I have seen many instances when just one or two council members by determined but reasoned argument changed decisions.

I do now wonder how I ever found time for it all - so try and ENJOY being a Council member and get used to reading large volumes of material quickly!!

Best wishes,

Richard S.

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

J G Wray — Thu, 11 May 2017 18:05:11 GMT

[quote user="Danny Chambers"] I've been a regular contributor to this forum for almost two years now so I won't be disappearing off the grid now I'm elected.[/quote]

Perhaps you shouldn't say this sort of thing until after you have had your induction into RCVS Council.

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

Danny Chambers — Thu, 11 May 2017 11:58:36 GMT

A big thank you to everyone who voted for me in the RCVS elections. I've been a regular contributor to this forum for almost two years now so I won't be disappearing off the grid now I'm elected. Any thoughts, concerns, comments or advice over the next 4 years will be very much appreciated.

Thank you!

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

Bob Russell — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 14:25:11 GMT

With cooperation and less posturing there could be some very soft borders, sensible cooperation and minimal disruption!

Yet again the border is at a standstill as Schengen rules are implemented in the harshest possible terms. Spanish workers and Gibraltarian businesses are all suffering!

I have never understood the antagonism. It is bound to harden opinions. A gentler approach from Spain would probably have led to some form of joint control. Cooperation and being nice might just have resulted in the Falkland islanders respecting and accepting more Argentinian influence.

Instead they just have to get into a pis+ing contest!

Why did EU leaders not go to Cameron (or him go to them) and say 'we have a problem here, lets find a solution'?

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 12:54:44 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

I completely agree with this.

The problem with Gibraltar tho is much more deeper than simply having an agreement vetoed by Spain. One one hand people from La Línea can find a job somewhere else in Spain mainland while Gibraltarenos have no place to go (of no fault of their own, they are becoming bargaining chips too). On the other hand the Rock is not really self-sufficient without its tax benefits and it is only there because it benefits the UK strategic position.

I'm completely against closing 'la verja' there, but I understand the EU has allowed a special favourable treatment of the Rock in comparison with its neighbours it doesn't need to allow this after the exit.

I would think the right thing to do would be a soft border there.

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

Bob Russell — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 11:16:09 GMT

It should be pretty evident to even the thickest skull'ed Eurocrat that no agreement will be reached that compromises Gibraltar. If they are going to push this one point alone then we might as well accept that there will be no agreement and leave.

Clearly we will all have to face the consequences should WTO rules apply.

I am of the opinion that the uncertainty of negotiating with playground bullies and whining 'children' is potentially worse than the alternative.

I was anti-EU but anti-Brexit and everyone I have spoken to with similar views appear to have become strongly anti-EU and resigned to a 'hard' Brexit.

Any clients behaving in the threatening manner that has been seen from European leaders and cronies would be shown the door and told not to come back!

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 10:14:55 GMT

In 1713, the Treaty of Utrecht was signed. This is the treaty that the European Commission have tied into the Brexit secession negotiations with respect to Gibraltar.

This, to me, seems a ridiculously aggressive stance for the European oligarchs to be taking and certainly damaging to the interests of Francisco and other European colleagues resident in the UK. The treaty of Utrecht settled the circumstances of Gibraltar but it also dealt with other, much bigger questions relating to Spanish claims on the French throne as well as Dutch and Portuguese claims on parts of what are now Italy and Germany (Italy and Germany weren't invented until long after 1713). Are the good folk on the EU gravy train really keen to re-open these cans of worms??? Conversely, if they hope to separate out only those bits of the treaty that suit their own interests, that seems a dangerous precedent to be setting with regard to their own EU defining treaties.

It is to be hoped that the forthcoming round of elections on the mainland instils some semblance of common sense and constructive thought in the heads of Junker, Verhofstadt and co.

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

Bob Russell — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 09:45:08 GMT

Not one of the sources can be trusted. I have never seen such total bias in pretty much every news organisation.

Every source of information, including fb groups are peddling what the readers/subscribers want to see.

The 'Express' used to be a fairly sound paper just as the BBC tried to be balanced. I look at a number of papers and average them out!

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 16:50:31 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

I have changed from BBC to The Express in my leanings since the referendum! Never thought that was possible!!

[/quote]

I don't think you can even trust those sources anymore. I am member of several pro-Brexit fb groups, where news like this:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/789951/Brexit-trade-deal-India-Commonwealth-worth-2-billion-british-economy-may-tusk-EU

are being shared every several hours from all three Sun, Telegraph and Express. They contain very little information other than click-bait (and take into account each click will give them revenue). People are desperate to hear good news and they keep going at it.

That one, for example, fails to point that 2bn export trade is a drop in the ocean for a country the size of India: the export EU trade to India was worth 50bn in 2015 alone:

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/india/index_en.htm

But there is more: https://www.ft.com/content/a1d65e82-1ac1-11e7-bcac-6d03d067f81f

(It reads: 'Theresa May ensures only Brexit key allows entry to n10 '"Officials have made clear that any critical statements in the media about immigration, trade, or the rights of EU residents will be punished with an immediate cessation of access, according to one big business lobby." ')

Who do you trust? I honestly can't tell you. But I'd be wary of the Express.

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

Bob Russell — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 16:05:08 GMT

I agree that I do not believe negotiations will go well. I see nothing but bad feeling and lack of respect especially from EU leaders and politicians.

I was not keen to leave the EU but if there really is as little goodwill as is being spouted then it is very unlikely that there will be agreement. If so perhaps we should just get on with the exit, take the hits that will result all round. At least it will shorten the period of uncertainty.

Not sure I can be bothered with two or more years of bitching!

I have changed from BBC to The Express in my leanings since the referendum! Never thought that was possible!!

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 15:32:22 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

I did not say that getting the paperwork together is as easy!

[/quote]

Thank you for that, it is very much appreciated.

[quote]

[/quote]

Now this is hurdle: 'Wait'.

I personally don't think the negotiations will end well. As much as they say that both parties have good intentions at heart we all know the only way both the EU and the UK current gov can survive is by breaking them.

The EU cannot accept that a member leaving the union would have superior benefits than those in it. And the UK gov (the A50 HoC vote gives them full powers here, hence full responsibility too) cannot accept the opposite without telling the public otherwise.

If we wait and we don't know for how long we will have to wait, many of us residents will no longer be legal residents. We don't know how this form would be simplified or if it will change or how it will change. The PR document itself IS an EU directive. We need to know ASAP what we need to comply with so we aren't denied simple things like opening a bank account, rent agreements, mortgage applications, access to the NHS and other services. Including state benefits. Many of us have made our lives here, we have Brit partners, spouses, family, friends. Coming back is not an option, but staying put is uncertain.

I have a permanent full time job, would you advise me of purchasing private medical insurance? I think it is likely I won't need it. But if the NHS gets in a lot of trouble, who are the ones more likely to have this cover refused?

I'm leaving it to that - I realise I won't get much support here and I'm sure most of the contributors are tired of these.

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

Bob Russell — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 14:29:44 GMT

I have filled in that particular form numerous times. I do know how easy the form is! 85 pages sounds daunting but it is not.

I did not say that getting the paperwork together is as easy! The form itself is not difficult as most pages do not apply to each applicant.

For the majority of applicants providing the documents should not be that difficult. Employees have suitable documentation in the form of P60's etc.

I agree much more complicated for the self-employed, especially those working in multiple places over the years. It is possible that in this situation it may be more appropriate to wait in the hope of a simplified process. This will be required because as you say, there are not enough staff to process the applications.

I have been dealing with UKBA then UKVI and the Home Office for a decade on a regular basis. I do have a lot of experience with how they work. Sadly little of it complimentary!

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 14:03:09 GMT

Here I'm not complaining about the process itself, but it feels quite patronising when someone who doesn't have to do it tells you how easy it is.

And I'm not that worry for myself, this is yet another mess (of the very many) where there is not safeguards whatsoever.

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 13:49:24 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

It is really impossible to say at this stage what the rules will be for those EU nationals that result from negotiations. The way EU leaders are talking it may well be that we walk away without agreement!

[/quote]

Yep, I know the media you follow tells you that. Other media outlets say different. But I agree with you the UK might as well walk away. If that happens, EU nationals are the responsibility of the UK ONLY, because they live in the UK soil and the whole purpose of leaving is to not have EU interference.

So you keep going having a go at EU leaders, when in reality they can't do anything for us EU nationals anyway.

[quote]

The 85 page document is nowhere as bad as it looks! Most pages can be marked as n/a or skipped! Filled in a number over the years and can do most in about 20 minutes!

[/quote]

I've been here 10 years Bob, it has taken me two days off work and I still don't have all paperwork to qualify. Bank statements off the internet are not valid, you need to go to the bank to have them stamped, many things can't be provided unless originals.

A friend has kids here, is working but the mum had to take some time off work to look after the kids, these make them both the mum and the kid not eligible.

[quote]

tax records and an accountants letter should suffice. Not sure where the clients letters come in unless they are confirming you worked for a specific place for a specific time. Utility bills help confirm residence.

[/quote]

not as easy. have a proper look at the form.

[quote]

All these applications are processed 'on the balance of probability' rather than 100% proof.

[/quote]

The applications can't be processed because there not enough people to do the work and the requirements are a nuisance in many aspect.

This is Anne-Laurie, co-chair of the3million explaining to the Brexit committee about the paperwork needed:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154556550293026&set=a.80929873025.79020.622563025&type=3&theater

Full thread here: http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/exiting-the-european-union-committee/news-parliament-2015/negotiating-objectives-for-eu-withdrawal-8-evidence-16-17/

We work with lawyers who work for free and still 30% of applications are being rejected in the basis of the difficulty of obtaining these documents.

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

Anthony Todd — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:54:43 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]

I think that being happy and helping colleagues be happy is rather lovely

[/quote]

What's the difference between "happy", "content", and "satisfied".

Trouble is words [narcissist is not a good example] change meaning with time, and now, with the internet etc. very quickly......

"narcissism" Shorter Oxford 1956 "A morbid self-love or self admiration"

"Idiot" is a good example, although over much longer time.

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

Bob Russell — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 11:45:45 GMT

As I have suggested in other threads, EU residents may be well served by getting permanent residence if they qualify.

The rules on qualifying were drawn up when an EU worker had automatic rights to live and work in the UK. Health insurance was brought in to reduce the burden on the NHS by those EU nationals that were not economically active (but includes those looking for work). Nobody took much notice of this requirement as the NHS was very unlikely to refuse treatment for any EU national anyway so why spend the money?

It is three years in the UK to allow application for naturalisation as a spouse and five years for others! Fee is over a grand!

Permanent residence can be applied for by EU nationals that have been exercising their EEA freedom of movement rights (ie working or actively looking for work) for 5 years or more. Citizenship (Naturalisation) generally has to wait until someone has had permanent residence of at least 12 months. This means someone may need to be resident for 6 years before naturalisation.

Naturalisation is also not a right so someone with, for example, a criminal record is likely to have to wait significantly longer or may not be eligible at all.

Nothing to do with residence or citizenship is simple or cheap but with luck some form of fast-track will come into play!

The 85 page document is nowhere as bad as it looks! Most pages can be marked as n/a or skipped! Filled in a number over the years and can do most in about 20 minutes!

Edit: To apply it is necessary to demonstrate continuous economic activity. PAYE is a pretty simple way if appropriate. A locum may well have problems showing this continuity but tax records and an accountants letter should suffice. Not sure where the clients letters come in unless they are confirming you worked for a specific place for a specific time. Utility bills help confirm residence.

All these applications are processed 'on the balance of probability' rather than 100% proof.

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 11 Apr 2017 19:08:21 GMT

[quote user="Richard Stephenson"]

[/quote]

I believe you can't be removed as long as you behave as you say. Your right of residency however is not part of it. That still needs to be established and there is no safeguards AFAIK in case of breakdown of post A50 negotiations.

[quote]

. Once on - always on! As I understand it if EU nationals have lived here for four years they can apply for Citizenship in any event

[/quote]

This is FACTUALLY INCORRECT Richard Stephenson.

To apply for citizenship, you need first a PR for what you need to fill the 85 page form https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/apply-for-a-document-certifying-permanent-residence-or-permanent-residence-card-form-eea-pr which might not be as straight forward as it seems. In my case, I need to travel to Spain to get an Spanish ID while the Home Office decides for how long they will keep my ORIGINAL passport. There is also the requirement of Comprehensive Sickness Insurance that you are obliged to get if for any reasons there is a break in your employment during those 5 years. If you are a locum or have/had a limited company, the documentation needed multiplies. Utility bills, HMRC letters, letters from your employers, letters from your clients, etc..

List of absences for any more than 24 hours.

Marriage/children of EU nationals do not qualify automatically even if born here.

Then, after a year of guaranteed PR, you can ask for citizenship.

The problem here isn't deportation, it is access to services.

[quote]

I suspect most vets were 'remainers' (and I know that most of the upper echelons of the RCVS were) but the fact is we are leaving and it is imperative that the profession now gets whatever advantage can be got from BREXIT by carefully thinking through who we really want to register and will that meet our needs.

[/quote]

It is no longer about being a 'remainer'. It is about dealing with the consequences.

Are the problems with non British non EU vets numbers having poor pass test rates? or with lack of applications? Should the RCVS make it easier for non-EU vets to come over by reducing the quality of those who wish to adventure into the UK?

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

Bob Russell — Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:21:22 GMT

The profession has become very reliant on EU graduates. I would be asking why we have become so reliant as we train more and more here? Are we really finding out and dealing with the reasons for so many leaving the profession at a relatively early age?

Is this need for non-UK vets a sign that we have a severely broken system.

I trained in the days when vets trained to be vets, most became vets and most stayed for a whole career. It was a pretty much 50:50 male to female class.

It is a complete nonsense to believe that things will change that much for EU vets living in the UK at present but there may be changes for vets wishing to work in the UK later.

At present the RCVS is not involved in deciding which EU veterinary graduates may work in the UK. As long as a university is 'approved' in its own country then graduates have a right to work here. If a university is not accredited, why not?

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

J G Wray — Wed, 29 Mar 2017 23:31:46 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="J G Wray"]

There is some reciprocity of status in respect of our degrees as issued say, by RVC.

Can anyone tell me how this was achieved

[/quote]

I believe the RVC pay for US inspection/accreditation, which allows them to attract foreign students who want to be assured of easy passage to work in the US, and charge them non-EU fees (some of which probably pays for such inspection/accreditation)

[/quote]

So, there is a business case for inviting inspection/accreditation which operates from the universities towards the regulator of the target country. This might also explain the English language degree from Budapest. This is all happening without the UK regulator actively offering anything.

Why does the UK regulator see a need to get involved in this area?

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

Richard Stephenson — Wed, 29 Mar 2017 21:05:42 GMT

Danny,

That is a very good answer! one of my concerns is that the BREXIT principles recently published by the RCVS whilst being very laudable don't have any 'meat' to them.

We currently employ 11 really excellent EU graduates getting on for 40% of our vet team and I don't know how we would manage without them.

Scare stories about vets not being able to practise in the UK after BREXIT really need to be dispelled. As a matter of law NO vet can be removed from the register except by the DC or for non-payment of the retention fee. Once on - always on! As I understand it if EU nationals have lived here for four years they can apply for Citizenship in any event - so even in worse case scenario (which I'm sure isn't remotely on the cards) any change could only effect recent migrants. To be fair to the College I think they have made this crystal clear (we should also recall that EU vets did migrate here even before EU membership).

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

Rob Loxley — Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:35:37 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

There is some reciprocity of status in respect of our degrees as issued say, by RVC.

Can anyone tell me how this was achieved

[/quote]

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

Danny Chambers — Wed, 29 Mar 2017 12:40:07 GMT

[quote user="Richard Stephenson"]

I have already voted for you and enjoyed your video, however I felt your views on BREXIT need more substance.

[/quote]

Thank you, very much appreciated. Fully agree re Brexit position needing more substance. Partly because these two minute videos are pointless in my opinion as you can't get into anything in detail, and partly because I am still trying to clarify in my own mind exactly what the situation is. I may call you for chat at some point if you wouldn't mind. You won't remember me but we met briefly when I was a new graduate in my first job next door to you at Straitons!

[quote user="Richard Stephenson"]

Thus those EU nationals currently working here already have their rights as vets in the UK guaranteed in law.

[/quote]

Yes, I thought this to be the case. I was also under the impression that anyone with a permanent job or a business owner is unlikely to have their residential status altered (in general, not just within the veterinary industry).

However, the sheer number of EU vets in the UK who do not seem to be aware of this is a problem- if they genuinely have nothing to worry about then the RCVS needs to make that crystal clear and communicate more effectively as many of them seem to be concerned. EU vets make up a high proportion of vets teaching in academia, doing internships, residencies and PhDs. Will Brexit affect funding for these positions- will EU vets still qualify for funding in the same way they currently do? It is common for EU vets to work in abattoirs as a first job in the UK both to improve their English and to gain some experience seeing UK practice while applying for private practice jobs. If the motivation to ultimately work in UK private practice was gone, would the abattoirs have a recruitment problem?

[quote user="Richard Stephenson"]

Under the current situation the right is automatic and it has been a complaint of the RCVS for many years that it has to register graduates from schools that have never been inspected OR when they have been they have failed that inspection.

[/quote]

I suppose this is one of the few advantages of Brexit- one of the few examples where we may genuinely be able to "take back control" by having greater control on who is eligible for RCVS membership from the EU.

[quote user="Richard Stephenson"]

Do you believe the RCVS should be in favour of the current system continuing with regards to registration OR do you think the RCVS should have the power to Register only those vets holding degrees from EU schools that have been inspected (and passed) the current EVE inspections.

[/quote]

I am assuming that the RCVS does not have the manpower or financial resources to inspect and accredit all the veterinary schools separately, although this would be the ideal. I am unfamiliar with the EVE inspection standards currently to have a valid opinion on whether these standards are appropriate. However, it would seem sensible if another body is performing inspections to a desired standard to piggyback off that. Any changes would probably have to be phased in to avoid a huge amount of disruption. What happens to EU nationals currently working here who graduated from a vet school that subsequently fails to meet RCVS standards? Would they need to sit RCVS exams to remain registered or would this only apply to new graduates coming through?

[quote user="Richard Stephenson"]

OR do you think we should return to relying on registration of 'old' Commonwealth nationals who graduate from schools in South Africa, Australia and New Zealand subject to RCVS visitation

OR a combination of the above

[/quote]

I suspect the combination of the above is going to be the most likely in reality, both for practical reasons and for the sake of keeping a viable work force in the short to medium-term.

[quote user="Richard Stephenson"]

This is the kind of BREXIT issue the College needs to be thinking of now - the government's door is open for advice - what do you think the RCVS should be saying?

[/quote]

I fully agree, it should be (and surely is?!) the top priority facing the RCVS and profession over the coming months. We have been discussing these issues at BVA meetings recently, it permeates every subject we meet about from farm assurance to AMR. What should the RCVS be saying to the government who need advice? One thing is for certain, with the Prime Minister repeating the manifesto pledge to reduce UK immigration to under 100,000 per year, they are going to have to make exceptions for the veterinary profession as the RCVS already register around 1000 EU vets a year, and we need these for both clinical practice and to maintain public health.

I will admit to not having all the answers, to having to both gauge the opinion of the members of RCVS and to research the options and political reality of the situation in much more detail should I be elected.

But an immediate priority for the RCVS over the next couple of weeks should be alleviating the stress and fears, whether well founded or misguided, of EU vets currently working in the UK.

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

Iain Richards — Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:32:55 GMT

I'd like to see RCVS having the courage to say, "Enough of the UK population may have been swayed by the falsehoods of self serving xenophobes and racists, but we'll continue to recognise those veterinary schools we've previously recognised."

RE: Make the veterinary profession great again!

J G Wray — Wed, 29 Mar 2017 10:35:04 GMT

Correct me if I'm wrong.

If one of us were to choose to go to the USA to work as a veterinarian in general, not academic practice, we would have to become State Board certified.

There is some reciprocity of status in respect of our degrees as issued say, by RVC.

Can anyone tell me how this was achieved, because I'm pretty sure it happened before RCVS' global branding.

For some veterinary surgeons, the prospect of becoming veterinarians in the US may be just as enticing as working in the UK. In considering the US option there is the inherent requirement for Board exam and State licencing if your degree is acceptable. The North American bodies don't have a quest to brand themselves globally, they just have "standards", set by examination. It's a tried and tested system.

RCVS is full of people who know all this, so why isn't this model acceptable for the UK?