The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 27 Feb 2017 07:59:36 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

you avoid the question of the considerable and ever-increasing democratic deficit that characterises the EU.

Where do you stand on that?

[/quote]

I didn't avoid the question.

The 'democratic deficit that characterises the EU' is only true to a certain point when you compare with any other democratic processes. This was pointed out in other thread. And I will try to look for the link and put it in here for you.

[/quote]

Sorry, could not find it. I went through very many posts where you point out the democratic deficits of the EU and, in one of them I point out why I think some members should be appointed rather than elected. But that's about it.

Will repeat myself here: Appointed members (that many criticise because aren't elected and are the ones who have the power to start legislation to be voted) are there for a reason. If you do let MEP do that job, you can potentially undermine the government wishes of each individual member state. I'm not sure if that's what you were pointing at.

Interestingly enough, the House of Lords is putting forwards amendments for the triggering of A50, some of which might be of interest for EU residents.

How do you feel about the 'democratic deficit' of one of the only institutions with power to amend legislation in the modern first world that still have hereditary peers? Is there any member of the EU legislatory body that isn't either elected or appointed by an elected person?

Edit: It is not meant to be a 'snippy' question. I still can't understand the ad hominen attack here. I honestly am interested and happy to take an answer to my question, even if it proves me wrong.

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Danny Chambers — Sun, 26 Feb 2017 09:58:58 GMT

Here's a similar issue discussed on the BVA blog.

https://www.bva.co.uk/news-campaigns-and-policy/bva-community/bva-blog/brexit-through-the-eyes-of-a-spanish-vet/

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Francisco Gomez — Sat, 25 Feb 2017 16:34:22 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

For someone who is in the habit of telling others, rather snippily, to read what you wrote,

[/quote]

I didin't think I was being snippily. If I'm, It was not my intention and I'm sorry.

[quote] I see no ethical, moral or other obstacle to a negotiating position that would offer enhanced/special access to UK citizenship for those who migrated and settled here before the vote and denying that same privilege to those who came later and who knew that the game had changed.

[/quote]

Fair enough.

[quote]

you avoid the question of the considerable and ever-increasing democratic deficit that characterises the EU.

Where do you stand on that?

[/quote]

I didn't avoid the question. I agree with you on many levels on this.

Not on all levels tho.

But I intentionally distance myself from the EU agenda when I call for the rights of settled EU citizens.

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Bob Russell — Sat, 25 Feb 2017 11:31:03 GMT

I have been a pro-European now converted to a strongly anti-EU person. European leaders responded from the moment the result came through in as an aggressive manner posible.

It would be foolish to give anything away until such time as they are willing to talk in a reasoned way.

Those EU residents that qualify for a residence permit should just get on with getting one. Those that qualify for naturalisation, that wish to go for it, should do so.

Those that do not qualify have no choice but to wait to see what agreement is reached.

The EU in its present format is a horrendous organisation and the likes of Juncker could hardly be less democratic. Perhaps without the UK fighting his kind, Europe will have to decide which path to take!

The hardest Brexit strikes me as preferable to an unreformed EU and I did not think for a second I would ever think like that!

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Malcolm Ness — Sat, 25 Feb 2017 08:15:48 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]EU citizens continue to move over here. You can't really stop their rights to do this until negotiations end. [/quote]

For someone who is in the habit of telling others, rather snippily, to read what you wrote, I point out that I made no mention of stopping their rights. However, now that Brexit has been voted for the game has changed and I see no ethical, moral or other obstacle to a negotiating position that would offer enhanced/special access to UK citizenship for those who migrated and settled here before the vote and denying that same privilege to those who came later and who knew that the game had changed.

You asked where I stood and I told you. Like almost all the vociferous "anti-Brexiteers" I encounter, you avoid the question of the considerable and ever-increasing democratic deficit that characterises the EU. Why should the fate of nation states (like Greece) be determined by independent interests (like the IMF and the German banking industry) according to an agenda that is determined who knows where by who knows whom? The current EU is dangerously un-democratic and is fuelling an ugly rash of right-wing demagoguery across Europe. While the ethos of trans-national cooperation is attractive, the current reality of an undemocratic European super-state whose power and reach increases by the day while the seat of that power (which very definitely ISN'T in the European Parliament where it should be if the EU were a democracy), the identity of the hands on the controller, becomes more and more opaque and that unsettles me greatly.

Where do you stand on that?

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Francisco Gomez — Fri, 24 Feb 2017 14:27:57 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

If EU leaders had been willing to discuss this then I have no doubt everything would have been resolved by now. the harder ball they play the more sensible it is to give nothing away.

Will the EU insist on the UK paying 60 billion before they agree? I suspect it will be the attitude of the EU leaders that determines the speed of a decision. There seems to be a lot of spite from them at the moment.

[/quote]

I don't know. But Liam Fox has an answer ready for this it seems. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/04/liam-fox-refuses-to-guarantee-right-of-eu-citizens-to-remain-in-uk

... so not just the attitude of the EU leaders?

[quote]

like children that have had a toy confiscated.

[/quote]

quite true.

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Bob Russell — Fri, 24 Feb 2017 13:56:27 GMT

People came here in good faith. British people moved to other EU countries in equally good faith. The world changes and for some that means a state of limbo.

Many can apply for permanent residence so the insecurity stops for them. Some have not been exercising their rights and have not taken out insurance (nor would I have bothered). These cannot apply under the 2015 rules for permanent residence because they don't qualify at the moment.

I cannot see any way that a unilateral guarantee is sensible but there has been plenty of reassurance that sorting out the arrangements will be the first priority.

If EU leaders had been willing to discuss this then I have no doubt everything would have been resolved by now. the harder ball they play the more sensible it is to give nothing away.

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Francisco Gomez — Fri, 24 Feb 2017 13:25:39 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

It is interesting to read.. bureaucratic oligarchy...

[/quote]

The first part of your post. I agree with deficiencies in the 'democracy' of the EU. We have talked about this. I agree on many of these points, and disagree on others. There's another thread for that and we have exhausted that one.

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

If I were empowered, an early gambit would be that EU migrants domiciled in UK before the referendum be offered a fast-track facilitated UK citizenship.

[/quote]

EU citizens continue to move over here. You can't really stop their rights to do this until negotiations end. That's the problem with the 'cut-off' date. It can take years for this to settle. How would you handle the potential thousands of people that will become residents after the cut-off date that you suggested? Independently of whether if they come in good faith or not.

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Malcolm Ness — Fri, 24 Feb 2017 12:25:09 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

'Brexit means Brexit, and we are going to make a success of it'

I'm not the extreme one here, the ones who want this alienation that you refer to is the Home Office.

[/quote]

No, Francisco that is democracy. Imperfect as it might be and unpopular with many, the referendum was carried through and that is the result with which we are left.

It is interesting to read your OP (as I did) and see the access you had to your MP. It does not surprise me. Contrast that with the situation in the EU - you may or may not have been able to gain access to your MEP but even if you had, what would have been the point? The European parliament is a sham - it operates an agenda set by others and is completely powerless. There is a massive democratic deficit in the EU and while many loud voices rant about why people voted for Brexit, they ignore, quite disingenuously, the significant number of intelligent, thoughtful and well-educated people who are turned-off completely by this bureaucratic oligarchy. As I write this, a senior German politician (Mrs Merkel) with no EU status other than her political position in a single member state and a French Banker,(Mrs LaGrande) who also has no EU status are meeting (at whose behest???) to decide on the fate of Greece in terms of whether the loans provided largely through German banks are extended/written-off/devalued or executed.

That is not a game that I am comfortable in.

You asked where I stand. I think that the EU should back down from its hard-faced, "We won't negotiate about anything yet" and "We will make Britain suffer for Brexit" and start talking about a whole range of things, not least the ex-pat/economic migrant issue. If I were empowered, an early gambit would be that EU migrants domiciled in UK before the referendum be offered a fast-track facilitated UK citizenship.

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Francisco Gomez — Fri, 24 Feb 2017 11:47:29 GMT

Sorry Bob, I updated the image. The previously uploaded one was not the intended one. Although it might still be relevant

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Bob Russell — Fri, 24 Feb 2017 11:46:01 GMT

Why should anyone make a decision now? There has to be an arrangement made with the remaining EU countries and they will not discuss the matter at all.

You may wish a decision to be made but until an agreement is reached your rights are maintained.

We would all like to know the direction of travel but it may well be some time before any of us do.

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Francisco Gomez — Fri, 24 Feb 2017 11:39:00 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

We are all living in a degree of limbo, get used to it as are we!

[/quote]

That's the problem. And its likely to be a very long limbo. Some people need to make decisions now!

[quote]

It is pretty obvious that your rights are going to be preserved as long as British citizens abroad have theirs respected.

[/quote]

Many Brits abroad don't want to be used in this way either.

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Bob Russell — Fri, 24 Feb 2017 11:00:47 GMT

But nobody has put obstacles in the way.

EEA citizens still have the same rights they did before. Refusals are not based on Brexit related legislation because there is none yet.

We are all living in a degree of limbo, get used to it as are we!

It is pretty obvious that your rights are going to be preserved as long as British citizens abroad have theirs respected.

If and when it is clear that rights are being reduced or removed then I will be the first to stand in line to support these people as I have (ineffectively) for non-EU nationals and their families.

Nothing has changed but there are questions that need to be answered in time.

Edit; No race to the bottom that I can see. EU members have decided no talks and other EEA members may not even get a say!

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Francisco Gomez — Fri, 24 Feb 2017 10:51:06 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

I think many would like to regulate immigration to allow skilled from outside the EU to work in the UK without the massive obstacles that are put in the way at the moment.

[/quote]

Ok, I'm not pro-obstacles re skilled people outside the EU. I'm against increasing obstacles for residents.

It seems to me that your view is to equalise both groups. Nothing wrong with that. But unless the government continues its 'race to the bottom' line, the EU residents will fall into the same rules than migrants outside it. The obstacles will continue, it just mean will be more of us facing them.

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Bob Russell — Fri, 24 Feb 2017 10:46:36 GMT

I think many would like to regulate immigration to allow skilled from outside the EU to work in the UK without the massive obstacles that are put in the way at the moment.

Similarly higher skilled EU nationals should be encouraged. This does not mean streams of vets working for £19000 a year in the sweat shop practices. Apparently there was a job advertised recently somewhere south of London with this salary.

It does mean that experienced vets and specialists are encouraged to bring their skills here.

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Francisco Gomez — Fri, 24 Feb 2017 10:22:03 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"] But with rights. Access to health service, pensions, etc. things which many of us have been paying for years, in some cases decades.[/quote]

Be very, very careful with that line of argument.

[/quote]

I (we) are being as careful as can. But unfortunately this is what Brexit means. My position is by no means stronger, it is the government (read my OP) who is keen on setting a 'cut-off' date. And without that date, there is no Brexit.

My position is to guarantee residency to all settled residents who live in the UK, whether they have been net contributors or not. And my argument is to take the group as a whole, because a) we are, as a group, a net contributor and b) It is despicable to use our rights (access, residency, etc.) to counter-argument the EU.

The UK can stand on its own, it does not need to play with us.

[quote] It is extreme. [/quote]

'Brexit means Brexit, and we are going to make a success of it'

I'm not the extreme one here, the ones who want this alienation that you refer to is the Home Office.

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

I do have an issue with the present scenario that allows almost any European (predominantly whites) effectively free access to UK simply because they are European while at the same time effectively excluding almost all other nationalities (predominantly people of colour) despite their talents, qualifications, experience, utility to our country simply because they are not European.

[/quote]

So you want to regulate immigration to avoid excluding people from outside EU but, at the same time, are worried of an argument where net contributors have a preference. How do you square the circle then? What would you propose?

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Bob Russell — Fri, 24 Feb 2017 10:20:03 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Why would access to the health service, pensions etc be affected?

The NHS is available to everyone normally resident in the UK

[/quote]

Not quite.

https://www.freemovement.org.uk/comprehensive-sickness-insurance-what-is-it-and-who-needs-it/

[/quote]

The NHS is available to anyone ordinarily resident in the UK.

There is a .gov tool that enables people to identify those who qualify.

The requirement for insurance surfaces when someone wishes to apply for permanent residence status.

This is being challenged but still a hyped problem which will have to be resolved as part of the negotiation.

EEA citizens and their families that come here to live (edit: & work) become ordinarily resident and therefore entitled to NHS care.

Struggling to see what the problem is. There will have to be some tweaking of legislation that was introduced to reduce EU/EEA health tourism probably with limited effect.

There will be a solution so those who do not qualify for permanent residence at the moment should wait until revised rules are brought in.

I expect some sort of cut off date to be introduced as a means of controlling further EA immigration but 3 million 'ordinary residents' are not going to be put on a boat home nor are they going to be refused NHS care.

The freemovement link (a good organisation by the way) also makes it clear that family members of students and the self-sufficient have needed insurance long before the Brexit vote.

Stupid 'prepare to leave' letters sent out by a department not known for quality or efficiency have muddied the water.

The UK government will be facing a million or more legal challenges if it does not tidy this all up satisfactorily.

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Malcolm Ness — Fri, 24 Feb 2017 08:15:40 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"] But with rights. Access to health service, pensions, etc. things which many of us have been paying for years, in some cases decades.[/quote]

Be very, very careful with that line of argument. It is extreme. If you suggest that your position is stronger BECAUSE you have been paying into the UK coffers and you are a net contributor, you alienate the more recent arrivals or those with sick children etc etc who are [currently] net beneficiaries.

Personally, I am a great fan of regulated immigration but I do have an issue with the present scenario that allows almost any European (predominantly whites) effectively free access to UK simply because they are European while at the same time effectively excluding almost all other nationalities (predominantly people of colour) despite their talents, qualifications, experience, utility to our country simply because they are not European.

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 23 Feb 2017 22:44:29 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

P.S. Francisco I suspect the person who gives you one star on every post regardless of the topic is a sad compulsive masturbator who only gets aroused at the sight of that one star. I bet he (must be a man) is also very fat and smells.

[/quote]

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 23 Feb 2017 21:40:46 GMT

Well Francisco, I quite admire you for this. I may not agree with some of the points you raised but well done for bringing the issue up with your MP.

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I know people are feeling insecure but there really is nothing to negotiate at this stage. The EU have refused to discuss anything until Article 50 triggers the proces[/quote]

I think the same. Until is all out is not much to talk or decide and one can only try withing the limitations of the current law.

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Not sure anyone is being used as a bargaining chip at the moment. [/quote]

I don't think anyone can be used as a bargain chip. It makes no sense as most immigrants are from East Europe and those countries can't decide much. Even if they did they may not care or, worst case scenario, will be happy that their work force is forced to return home. How many german or french are in this situation? When in history were the economic relations between two countries dictated by the needs of a few thousands? Unless the thousands were the aristocracy :)

[quote user="Bob Russell"]The NHS is available to everyone normally resident in the UK. EEA citizens that have resided here and paid NI will (presumably) remain residents[/quote]

Not really. One can pay NI without being a permanent resident and without being untitled to NHS care. But to me NHS is not a big problem as there is always private insurance. Not cheap but not the end of the world either. The issue really is the residency.

The issue, in my opinion, is the resident status. I am convinced that deportations will not happen but this is irrelevant. You don't have to be deported but if you can't legally work you will go on your own.

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 23 Feb 2017 16:18:48 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I believe people are looking for problems that are not there![/quote]

Inclined to agree, however if the 3 million didn't say a word then this issue? wouldn't be at the top of the political agenda, carry on Francisco !!

Neil

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 23 Feb 2017 15:50:48 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Why would access to the health service, pensions etc be affected?

The NHS is available to everyone normally resident in the UK

[/quote]

Not quite.

https://www.freemovement.org.uk/comprehensive-sickness-insurance-what-is-it-and-who-needs-it/

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Bob Russell — Thu, 23 Feb 2017 15:39:49 GMT

Why would access to the health service, pensions etc be affected?

The NHS is available to everyone normally resident in the UK. EEA citizens that have resided here and paid NI will (presumably) remain residents. Even contributory benefits become payable after 2 years of NI payments.

I believe people are looking for problems that are not there!

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 23 Feb 2017 15:31:52 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Not sure what more they can do other than weaken any bargaining position they take. EU nationals can remain in the UK but all British citizens must leave Spain?

[/quote]

I suspect (and hope) the problem is not to do with deportation. But with rights. Access to health service, pensions, etc. things which many of us have been paying for years, in some cases decades.

RE: The Outsider's view. Feb'17: A Brexiteer & Tory MP.

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 23 Feb 2017 14:23:48 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]EU nationals can remain in the UK but all British citizens must leave Spain?[/quote]I'm thinking of buying a chalet in the French Alps which will be mainly for holidays and letting but may become a second home in my dotage. How will that sort of thing be affected?, I won't be a resident just going for prolonged holidays. Will property ownership be banned as well? Its already very difficult in Switzerland for non-nationals to buy property but of course that is not in the EU.