Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

Clive Ansell — Thu, 23 Feb 2017 12:21:01 GMT

[quote user="Braden Collins"]Update: The bitch has given birth to two healthy, fully developed puppies, on her own - 3 weeks early if you believe the breeders dates.......[/quote]

Good news ..... and at least she will go on too breed more hideously deformed mutants another day

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

Lucy Fleming — Thu, 23 Feb 2017 12:15:26 GMT

[quote user="Braden Collins"]Update: The bitch has given birth to two healthy, fully developed puppies, on her own - 3 weeks early if you believe the breeders dates.......[/quote]

I guess a good result all around then (as long as their new owners are prepared to pursue the surgeries required for their nostrils, soft palate, cherry eyes, hiatal hernias and luxating patellas, and not just call it 'normal for the breed' )

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

Braden Collins — Thu, 23 Feb 2017 02:40:00 GMT

Update: The bitch has given birth to two healthy, fully developed puppies, on her own - 3 weeks early if you believe the breeders dates.......

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

Clive Ansell — Tue, 21 Feb 2017 16:51:01 GMT

[quote user="Joyce Whitehead"]I'm starting to feel guilty about my second child now (one emergency c section, one elective, due to very large babies not such a large pelvis...) [/quote]

From your name, I'm guessing you are a human being and you made the choice to have children. I'm also guessing that you are not brachycephalic, and did not try producing offspring with as many hideous genetic deformities as possible

The situation with breeding bitches is just that, and just to make money for the unscrupulous skanky backstreet breeders and for a certain element of the veterinary profession who seek to profit from it. I would go as far as saying the should be legislation to prevent it.

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

Dinu Catilina — Tue, 21 Feb 2017 07:56:12 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]Do you know why KFC isn't allowed to call itself kentucky fried chicken anymore? [/quote]

No, but valuable information, thank you! But to be honest I went there to eat the fried bird not for the name.

[quote user="David Mills"]Some cases are just beyond the reach of rationality.[/quote]

Strange how we can both reach the same conclusion Like I said before, you think you're right, I know I am ...

[quote user="David Mills"]Why are you so angry? Is it because you might lose money by not spaying? Oh what price ethics..[/quote]

Yes, I actually do. Only that I do not own a practice so those money would never go in my pocket anyway. And last year I did exactly 3 caesarians, the price of a TPLO. So yeah pretty much I need those money so desperately.

[quote user="David Mills"]Animals die so I can eat I'll ignore the environment comment as you must have some grasp on science [/quote]

But they do, you just choose to ignore it to be able to stand on the higher moral ground. Grasp on science, haha is it personal now? Now that you called me stupid you certainly must be right. Just lol. Get a grip dude, I was only expressing my disagreement with your comments. But then I should have known better than arguing with an extremist

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

David Mills — Tue, 21 Feb 2017 02:22:04 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

[quote user="David Mills"]Could you? How so. For the last 5 years I've only done them with concurrent spay. Apart from 1 as a locum for a night. Like clockwork 9 months later another Caesar. So that's 100%.[/quote]

Well it seems like you are the one who is confused my dear. Logical assumption of the conversation is : how many would require a second caesarian, not how many have you done. That is irrelevant.

[quote user="David Mills"]A considerable percentage of breeding animals will visit the vet before or after birth.[/quote]

That is not only an assumption but also bullshit. A considerable percentage will not visit the vet before or after birth. And yes I am right. Prove me wrong :)

[quote user="David Mills"]I would estimate, plucked out of thin air (like most power calculations in studies) that about 80% of dogs requiring a Caesar will need one second time round.[/quote]

I would estimate that 20% of vets on this forum will have stake for lunch tomorrow. Same thing, same value.

[quote user="David Mills"]Oopsie I am as it happens. For more than half my life after I visited a slaughter house at 16. You probably don't want to stretch this point[/quote]

We can stretch as it far as you want to really. There is no oopsie as I wasn't assuming that you were not. But in this case I would like to remind you about how many animals die anyway for you to eat ( being vegetables), drink, exist. Electricity, leather, non-leather everything comes at the expense of animals or fellow humans. And don't tell me about necessity. You use electricity and a computer to be on this forum as a pleasure not a necessity. Think of the impact on the environment

I have no issue with being a vegetarian. I tried for about six month until I landed in a KFC. I understand the reason behind it. But I find it dangerous that you get to decide in your clients place for your personal believes and not science. Some doctors may believe one day that maybe romanians that need a caesarian should be neutered at the same time. Yes, I know, I push it too far, not the same thing but maybe it is? Where is the choice?

[/quote]

Wowee. I can't even begin to unpick the lack of logic in here but I admire the splenetic effort. Some cases are just beyond the reach of rationality. Ca plus. Animals die so I can eat I'll ignore the environment comment as you must have some grasp on science

Do you know why KFC isn't allowed to call itself kentucky fried chicken anymore?

Why are you so angry? Is it because you might lose money by not spaying? Oh what price ethics...

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

Dinu Catilina — Tue, 21 Feb 2017 01:36:40 GMT

Well it seems like you are the one who is confused my dear. Logical assumption of the conversation is : how many would require a second caesarian, not how many have you done. That is irrelevant.

[quote user="David Mills"]A considerable percentage of breeding animals will visit the vet before or after birth.[/quote]

That is not only an assumption but also bullshit. A considerable percentage will not visit the vet before or after birth. And yes I am right. Prove me wrong :)

[quote user="David Mills"]I would estimate, plucked out of thin air (like most power calculations in studies) that about 80% of dogs requiring a Caesar will need one second time round.[/quote]

I would estimate that 20% of vets on this forum will have stake for lunch tomorrow. Same thing, same value.

[quote user="David Mills"]Oopsie I am as it happens. For more than half my life after I visited a slaughter house at 16. You probably don't want to stretch this point[/quote]

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

David Mills — Tue, 21 Feb 2017 00:17:41 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

[quote user="David Mills"]

How many as a percentage over the last five years?

In the sea of anecdote we drown in our own recollection bias.

[/quote]

Well, I can say exactly the same thing about you.

[/quote]

Could you? How so. For the last 5 years I've only done them with concurrent spay. Apart from 1 as a locum for a night. Like clockwork 9 months later another Caesar. So that's 100%. No anecdote

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

[quote user="David Mills"]

How many as a percentage over the last five years?

In the sea of anecdote we drown in our own recollection bias.

[/quote]

Well, I can say exactly the same thing about you.

How would you account for it? If a bitch has a caesarian and then next time delivers naturally how would you know? Isn't it bias when you only see the ones going bad?

[/quote]

You're getting confused in your righteousness. A considerable percentage of breeding animals will visit the vet before or after birth. It would be easy to collate data and then compare. Simples. I haven't got that data, because I'm not making the claims. I would estimate, plucked out of thin air (like most power calculations in studies) that about 80% of dogs requiring a Caesar will need one second time round. Is that an acceptable risk for profit (for both breeder and vet?)? It's why "I've seen plenty" is a bit like "I've seen lots of red cars today and the sun is shining therefore when I see lots of red cars I can cracking out the suncream".

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

I hope you are a vegetarian. Otherwise where is your ethics on animal welfare? And why is it unethical to try and educate when it is more than obvious that it is impossible to stop breeding these breeds.

[/quote]

Oopsie I am as it happens. For more than half my life after I visited a slaughter house at 16. You probably don't want to stretch this point

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

Joyce Whitehead — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 22:38:05 GMT

Don't worry, I'm happy about the jokes! I'm vertically challenged (5'4") but apparently have a narrow pelvis (although it's well covered in real life as I'm no sylph). However a 10lb14oz baby was never going to come out the straightforward way. And her brother (elective caesar) was 9lb 2 and 2 weeks early. Although he is now 6ft5" so has grown as expected. And he certainly gives me more benefit than a litter of pups!

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 22:17:53 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]Haven't seen a photo of you so we don't know of you are brachycephalic or have short bandy legs and wheezing . THIS IS A JOKE[/quote]

I sure hope she doesn't as the joke wouldn't be that funny anymore

[/quote]im feeling optimistic

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

Dinu Catilina — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 22:16:12 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]Haven't seen a photo of you so we don't know of you are brachycephalic or have short bandy legs and wheezing . THIS IS A JOKE[/quote]

I sure hope she doesn't as the joke wouldn't be that funny anymore

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

Dinu Catilina — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 22:15:02 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

How many as a percentage over the last five years?

In the sea of anecdote we drown in our own recollection bias.

[/quote]

Well, I can say exactly the same thing about you.

How would you account for it? If a bitch has a caesarian and then next time delivers naturally how would you know? Isn't it bias when you only see the ones going bad? From tens of thousands of pups born every year, what is the percentage of those born through a caesarian? Where is your evidence

Not every caesarian is a result of breed deformity.

[quote user="David Mills"]What price and profit we put on ethics...[/quote]

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 22:15:02 GMT

Wise move Joyce! Haven't seen a photo of you so we don't know of you are brachycephalic or have short bandy legs and wheezing . THIS IS A JOKE

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

David Mills — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 21:57:24 GMT

[quote user="niall morton"]

Neuter everything requiring a c section?? Really?? I've know plenty dogs who require a section in a first litter then not in a second litter.

Our duty is surely to educate not to dictate.

[/quote]

How many as a percentage over the last five years?

In the sea of anecdote we drown in our own recollection bias.

What price and profit we put on ethics...

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 21:54:35 GMT

I hope you're joking Joyce! I'd like to think you derived more benefit from enduring that C-section than a bitch does!

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

Joyce Whitehead — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 21:02:37 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="niall morton"]Neuter everything requiring a c section?? Really?? I've know plenty dogs who require a section in a first litter then not in a second litter.[/quote]

Aside from commercial gain, why else would you breed from that bitch, if another major surgery is a likely, if not inevitable, outcome?

[/quote]

I'm starting to feel guilty about my second child now (one emergency c section, one elective, due to very large babies not such a large pelvis...)

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 20:45:01 GMT

[quote user="niall morton"]Neuter everything requiring a c section?? Really?? I've know plenty dogs who require a section in a first litter then not in a second litter.[/quote]

Aside from commercial gain, why else would you breed from that bitch, if another major surgery is a likely, if not inevitable, outcome?

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

niall morton — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 20:36:34 GMT

Neuter everything requiring a c section?? Really?? I've know plenty dogs who require a section in a first litter then not in a second litter.

Our duty is surely to educate not to dictate.

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

David Mills — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 14:48:03 GMT

The neutering policy has been OK'd with Belgravia House. You can put conditions on terms of service - just as we only see people on certain benefits etc - and this extends to animals. You can refuse to see horses; you can refuse to see non-neutered animals.

Equally, you can make it a condition of service that all Caesars are neutered. We do it frequently with fracture repairs, stitch ups, epileptics, so its no different really. If they don't wish to agree to those terms, and you have met your obligations of emergency care (which by seeing the animal, you would have done), then it is upto them if they want to go elsewhere. Lost count of the number of times I've held the door open for people who said no money or no neuter (sometimes both at the same time) - not had one refuse yet.

As others have said, I would argue it is unethical not to neuter anything requiring a Caesarean. The other arguments about hips etc are irrelevant to this situation.

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

Clive Ansell — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 14:06:51 GMT

The PDSA, and other charity clinics, are charities that rely on donations, and are not open to anyone and everyone. The PDSA, and I suspect other charities too, have strict eligibility and almoning procedures, part of which is the exclusion of breeding related activity . Those not eligible are turned away and sent to a PVS, other than a genuine emergency of course. They are certainly not there as a walk in C-section service for skanky backstreet breeders.

If I were a donor, I would not be happy seeing my money spent providing freebie C-sections.

I agree the responsibility is 100% that of the pet owner.

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

Braden Collins — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 13:39:30 GMT

I work in Australia so the PDSA isn't an option here, but if it was I would look to send caesars there if a pet owner couldn't afford the procedure because I wouldn't do it myself without payment.

It's not up to me to pay for someone else's pet under any circumstances, so the owner would get the option of euthanasia or PDSA.

I would of course call the PDSA out of courtesy, and if they refused it then I would offer humane euthanasia again to the owners.

I would hate performing the euthanasia, but I don't believe we should ever work for free just out of guilt. The responsibility belongs to the pet owner, not to us.

Bring on the 1 stars.

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

Clive Ansell — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 10:42:14 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]Where do you stop though, do you spay all labradors because of elbow dysplasia?[/quote]

I would advise against breeding from any animal with known heritable defects, but brachycephalics are an extreme example, where I feel the profession should be leading the way on welfare. Of course, it will never happen.

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]It would be great if everyone refused[/quote]

What's stopping them?

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"] but the consequences may be to simply drive the practice to vets with 'kitchen table' standards[/quote]

That's where effective regulation and enforcement of minimum clinical standards are needed, again unlikely to happen in my lifetime.

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 10:01:17 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]I'm of the opinion that speying at the time of C-section should be compulsory, certainly for brachycephalic breeds, and not to do so should be deemed unethical. Where clients won't accept it, they should be told go elsewhere or offered PTS.[/quote]

In effect you are saying what evolutionary pressures would exert. Cattle in New Zealand under the easy calving protocol endure this.

Where do you stop though, do you spay all labradors because of elbow dysplasia?

It's interesting that a recent observation in people is that caesarians are increasing simply because we are no longer selecting for narrower pelvis size.

It would be great if everyone refused, but the consequences may be to simply drive the practice to vets with 'kitchen table' standards, surely we are better than that?

Neil

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

Clive Ansell — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 09:54:09 GMT

I'm of the opinion that speying at the time of C-section should be compulsory, certainly for brachycephalic breeds, and not to do so should be deemed unethical. Where clients won't accept it, they should be told go elsewhere or offered PTS.

I mooted the idea at 2 of my regular practices, and both responded that I could take that line if I wanted too, but they did not feel that they could support me given it is not the norm within the profession.

What would be good to see, if taking that line, one could be assured of backing and support from the elders within the profession and the RCVS.

RE: Ethical dilemma: French Bulldog Caesarean

Clive Ansell — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 07:42:10 GMT

Last time I worked for the PDSA it was policy to neuter when doing a C-section.

Firstly, they don't support breeding activity so a C-section would only be offered as an emergency procedure if and when it becomes necessary to save the life of the bitch (so, that's no elective C-sections for specific breeds etc)

Clients have to agree too and sign consent for neutering at the same time. If they don't want to they are redirected to a PVS (private veterinary surgeon) or offered PTS.

Ones that have been sent along from private practices (often these just turn up with no history or telephone call) who are trying to avoid/evade their responsibilities under the RCVS code of conduct, and seek to use charity clinics as a dumping ground, are turned around and sent straight back, if the client doesn't satisfy almoning rules.