Commercialism and being a vet.

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

Bob Russell — Fri, 17 Feb 2017 11:16:37 GMT

A little bit more on thread!

Latest and most depressing issue relates to the Senior Clinical Research fellowship in Infection advert in the Vet Record at Liverpool.

Medical applicants get paid at clinical rates but vets are at non-clinical rates. There is a strange apology in this weeks Vet Record but as this is for the same job it seems clear that vets are entitled to lower pay than medical counterparts!

Clearly University of Liverpool do not consider us clinicians and as such are not worth as much.

Pretty shit_y policy in my opinion and Liverpool should be hangimg their heads in shame.

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

Dinu Catilina — Wed, 15 Feb 2017 22:19:21 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]It seems we cannot even identify the most at risk children as shown by the 20 something's masquerading as children.[/quote]

Ofcourse we can but the problem is that nobody wants to take this responsibility on. The public servant only wants to stay out of trouble.

[quote user="Bob Russell"]We cannot fix Syria nor can we provide a safe environment in the UK for large numbers of unaccompanied Syrian children. [/quote]

Of course we can but there are no money to be made from it. Just all the so called foreign aid that is actually only bribery or a legal way of detouring government money.

[quote user="Bob Russell"]These children are the result of a problem that needs to be fixed or at least alleviated. A symptom not a cause[/quote]

Well, UK, France and USA are the cause. Maybe the same three countries should fix the problem?

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

Bob Russell — Wed, 15 Feb 2017 10:02:25 GMT

Much of the empathy discussion goes straight over my head!

We cannot fix the world as individuals or individual countries. We cannot fix Syria nor can we provide a safe environment in the UK for large numbers of unaccompanied Syrian children.

It seems we cannot even identify the most at risk children as shown by the 20 something's masquerading as children.

We can help provide a degree of protection for refugees in countries where they are fairly safe (Jordan, Lebanon etc) by providing aid and medical care locally.

We all agree that the cost of re homing one Greek/Romanian dog would pay for the care of far more locally. Uncomfortable as this comparison may seem there really are similarities.

If in doubt pay for these children to be returned to a safe place nearer home and make sure they are accommodated/fed/educated. This is less likely to encourage more to make dangerous journeys.

These children are the result of a problem that needs to be fixed or at least alleviated. A symptom not a cause.

We do have a responsibility but not one that is likely to result in 'for every child we take, another will appear'.

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 15 Feb 2017 08:28:59 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

Hair splitting definitions

"..Emotional empathy, also called affective empathy or primitive empathy, is the subjective state resulting from emotional contagion. It is our automatic drive to respond appropriately to another's emotions. This kind of empathy happens automatically, and often unconsciously

Cognitive empathy is the largely conscious drive to recognize accurately and understand another's emotional state. Sometimes we call this kind of empathy “perspective taking.”

[/quote]

The Moral Maze on Radio 4 might have some relevance to this discussion, it's titled "The Morality of Empathy." The starting point for the discussion is the ending of the scheme to provide asylum for unaccompanied Syrian children and includes this in the description of the program: "In a difficult world where there are no easy answers, does empathy cloud our judgment? [Is it] morally better to use reason and evidence to decide on the most effective, altruistic course of action?"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08dnwrw

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

J G Wray — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 15:33:44 GMT

Hair splitting definitions

Cognitive empathy is the largely conscious drive to recognize accurately and understand another's emotional state. Sometimes we call this kind of empathy “perspective taking.”

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

ruths — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 07:53:18 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="ruths"]that's nice, but the politics of the far right kind of negate that [/quote]

OK well that's a good example of deflection. I'm not talking about changing the world here. That I'll leave for others. The threads on this site and the mood amongst some in the profession, an altogether smaller orbit, relates to the discomfort of some with their work hitherto either not recognised, discussed or genuinely absent. This may be manifest in Millennials, with their values and views on our work, through to emotional Gen X overwhelmed and coping poorly and on to baby boomers feeling whatever they feel, perhaps isolation, inauthentic connection and a need to SHOUT.

I'm beginning to get your point about compassion. That paper you pointed to highlights the effect on someone showing empathy to another and the value of reorientation.

I don't think that we're seeing that yet, because we're back at the beginning of any discussion where tools and outcomes are just being looked at. Refinement ain't the answer yet. Something pragmatic and that can be learned which leads to an outcome where those who are struggling can show, in my opinion:

1. Resilience

2. Stoicism

3. Organisation

in their veterinary lives would be a modest and realistic set of goals.

[/quote]

Sorry, yes I do get the hardwired for empathy thing. I'm just jaded by what's happening in the world right now and how many people still think it's a good thing!

I also have daily experience of autism and the difficulty in getting people with autism to recognise and demonstrate their feelings for others. As a natural empath, I find it hard sometimes.

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

J G Wray — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 07:25:16 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]that's nice, but the politics of the far right kind of negate that [/quote]

I'm beginning to get your point about compassion. That paper you pointed to highlights the effect on someone showing empathy to another and the value of reorientation.

1. Resilience

2. Stoicism

3. Organisation

in their veterinary lives would be a modest and realistic set of goals.

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

ruths — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 02:43:19 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="ruths"]and in still not conceived that it's more empathy that we need. We don't need to feelmrhe sane as the other person- it is likely to end up draining our emotuons.[/quote]

Ermmmmm, I think I can see what you've written. So, here's what I think. I think empathy can be acquired, but you don't need to feel the other person's pain and compassion is difficult to make authentic. That makes it more difficult to implement as a helping strategy, because that's where this is going, a pragmatic tool to start a conversation.

Now try this, which kind of implies we're softwired to be empathetic:

(Please visit the site to view this video)

Love that word shibboleth

[/quote]

that's nice, but the politics of the far right kind of negate that

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

ruths — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 02:30:32 GMT

I would suggest that the 'desire toNhelp' part of this training

means that they have effectively trained the doctors in compassion. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/387784/?client=safari

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

ruths — Tue, 14 Feb 2017 02:21:00 GMT

https://oup.silverchair-cdn.com/oup/backfile/Content_public/Journal/scan/9/6/10.1093_scan_nst060/3/nst060.pdf?Expires=1487383744&Signature=GV1GohnX70ZIJa2RWQT36BuvoxzmBiQsgtMaHDxw5vmw6DNCSLeBB4CGse5FR30GkM2RxV3x8D294By7Vvg5wImbddJU5xHibZIXmVcGHeA1hWvpeo78xEqBW0YV~-7cZInCV4ZkEDxFXwGKWONbG5H8Mw1EjMtQTmVBpwTN~mtEU7ZyMwm6UHanMqvRhJTds17qCi7E1wxBOVKRZnEMDqRlqaCl-b2P5sPNsBoEyb4ZaOz1ocKXFJlX8isHa3Cw3LYw27TYOVc0L2kgvmy5jRLcp11K8tSaHkeNr4Qr2EL6sLkv3PbYlpCqY6r~A35PXaYlriMn4MD0QjYOH6SX6Q__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIUCZBIA4LVPAVW3Q

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

J G Wray — Mon, 13 Feb 2017 23:10:34 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]and in still not conceived that it's more empathy that we need. We don't need to feelmrhe sane as the other person- it is likely to end up draining our emotuons.[/quote]

Now try this, which kind of implies we're softwired to be empathetic:

www.youtube.com/watch

Love that word shibboleth

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

Dinu Catilina — Mon, 13 Feb 2017 18:07:51 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]12 year old cat diagnosed as hyperthyroid, no other medical problems. There are several options which all have pluses and minuses. Referral for radioactive iodine treatment, very effective, but expensive and the cat has to be hospitalised for several weeks,[/quote]

5 days!

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

ruths — Mon, 13 Feb 2017 17:20:04 GMT

Sorry- the above post was for JGW - not proof read either -(

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 13 Feb 2017 16:57:02 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]

and in still not conceived that it's more empathy that we need. We don't need to feelmrhe sane as the other person- it is likely to end up draining our emotuons.

we need to keep ourselves safe and not get dragged under by the sadness we encounter.

and my understanding of compassion is just that- a way of responding to somebody who needs our support without it putting us in the same place as them (which can end up harmful tomis) but it respects their point of view and helps them manage the situatikn.

[/quote]

Having said I didn't have anything to add I've changed my mind! I agree with what you've said above. My wife has suffered from anxiety and depression for several years, she is getting good treatment and there has been some improvement. For me to help her I need to know what she is feeling and to try and understand why she is feeling it, what causes her to feel it, and how I can help her to respond in a better way. It would not be helpful for me to feel the same as her.

On the subject of 'In Our Time', in my last job I was usually on visits on a Thursday morning, setting off from the practice at about 9am so I often used to listen to most of the program, always fascinating, but very easy to lose track of the conversation!

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

Timothy Miles — Mon, 13 Feb 2017 16:48:14 GMT

Perhaps better to give it all up and concentrate instead on improving your toping skills !

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

ruths — Mon, 13 Feb 2017 16:39:37 GMT

Yes yes

ive seen it mtiple times and I've listened to brene brown talk and read some stuf fthat she's qrotten

and I've looked at the lady who has reaseched the neurobiological impact of empathy and who teaches medics.

and in still not conceived that it's more empathy that we need. We don't need to feelmrhe sane as the other person- it is likely to end up draining our emotuons.

we need to keep ourselves safe and not get dragged under by the sadness we encounter.

eg you don't want your therapist to cry as much as you when you tell them about your awful childood/ abuse / whatever

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 13 Feb 2017 16:16:30 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]My bet is that they decided to do what you suggested, which is my whole point; you are the expert! Unless you left it entirely up to them which sort of defeats the object of your advice....[/quote]

Here's another example:

12 year old cat diagnosed as hyperthyroid, no other medical problems. There are several options which all have pluses and minuses. Referral for radioactive iodine treatment, very effective, but expensive and the cat has to be hospitalised for several weeks, maybe longer if the owner is pregnant, and small risk of hypothyroidism afterwards. Oral medication, lifelong treatment, control usually very good but small risk of side-effects of medication and will need regular blood tests. Thyroidectomy, usually a permanent fix, but risk of GA and risk of hypocalcaemia. Low iodine diet, can give very good control, but only appropriate for an indoor cat that will eat it and has no access to any other food. While I would tend towards medical stabilisation followed by thyroidectomy all of the other options are good choices and I would be happy with an owner trying any of them. And then there's the methimazole gel to apply on the ear, off license and I have concerns about environmental contamination so not on my initial list.

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

Anthony Todd — Mon, 13 Feb 2017 15:19:34 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]This week's example was a cat with gastric lymphoma - I counselled the owner of the treatment options, what each involved for them and their pet, the costs, the likely outcomes/survival times, potential for adverse effects etc, and they were able to make their decision. Who was I to, say, twist their arm into COP or just offer them a pot of pred?[/quote]

So what did they decide and why?

My bet is that they decided to do what you suggested, which is my whole point; you are the expert! Unless you left it entirely up to them which sort of defeats the object of your advice....

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

J G Wray — Mon, 13 Feb 2017 14:56:35 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]

That makes it sound like 'playing the victim card' might be the only other response to the situation.

Im wondering if there might be another response?

[/quote]

try this

www.youtube.com/watch

It articulates my feeling about empathy vs compassion

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

Bob Russell — Mon, 13 Feb 2017 13:54:29 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]She left in a huff[/quote]

And didn't claim constructive dismissal. Lucky.

[/quote]

The other aspect of her behaviour was bullying staff so I suspect she had concerns about going down this route. She did mention constructive dismissal when she sent in her untaken holiday pay demand. We just paid up despite her not being entitled. Cheap at the price!

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

ruths — Mon, 13 Feb 2017 12:28:55 GMT

lol- my mate was on it once. talking about Dante.

as much as I appreciate her, I didn't get to the end

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

Malcolm Ness — Mon, 13 Feb 2017 12:26:48 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]that reminds me of my response to In Our Time on r4 wth Melvyn. I often think 'how fascinating' but then realise that I thought I'd be interested but it's gone too far in the details and I'm actually not interested at all [/quote]

But you are missing the point. In our time isn't there to be interesting, it exists to demonstrate the cleverness of dear old Mr Bragg. Is his the best example of nominative determinism?

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

ruths — Mon, 13 Feb 2017 11:42:38 GMT

Oh lol-))

that reminds me of my response to In Our Time on r4 wth Melvyn. I often think 'how fascinating' but then realise that I thought I'd be interested but it's gone too far in the details and I'm actually not interested at all

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 13 Feb 2017 08:47:32 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Agreed, but I think we may be the only ones at all interested in doing something, because it's another language. Ah well[/quote]

Do keep discussing it, please! I don't really have anything to add but it is fascinating.

RE: Commercialism and being a vet.

J G Wray — Sun, 12 Feb 2017 18:45:15 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]

FWIW, I think that the empathy and compassion discussion is splitting hairs.

but it's worth discussing

[/quote]

Agreed, but I think we may be the only ones at all interested in doing something, because it's another language. Ah well