Some questions about diplomas

RE: Some questions about diplomas

Andrew Kent — Mon, 06 Feb 2017 11:20:32 GMT

[quote user="James Dunne"]

Dear Andy

The alternative pathways for surgery are not allowed where a full-time residency exists in the jurisdiction. I have researched the options carefully and have put applications for an alternative pathway in writing but been declined. The RCVS requirement was for 200 days at a recognised centre with work on one's own being offered over a longer time frame and also the supervised component had to cover the 80 hours anaesthesia, medicine, path, DI etc etc. Each college is different, but for surgery the surest route to a Diploma is through a full-time residency early in one's career. Competition is getting tougher though so perhaps the ECVS/RCVS will reconsider what is happening.

[/quote]

Interesting - thanks James.

There are a few alternative track programme's approved through ECVIM but many fewer than the number of residencies, its certainly not easy to get these approved from what I can see.

Andy

RE: Some questions about diplomas

James Dunne — Mon, 06 Feb 2017 11:16:24 GMT

Dear Andy

RE: Some questions about diplomas

orik — Mon, 06 Feb 2017 10:48:53 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

I don't mean to be rude, but either English is not your first language or your autocorrect is being overzealous tonight. I don't quite understand what you are saying.

The approval of alternative pathways is very straightforward. There's 5 guys on the cattle alternate pathway in the UK, I know at least 3 of them are in general practice. There is another girl doing the sheep pathway in general practice. It can be done (for large animals, anyway).[/quote]

I probably misunderstood what you meant with alternative pathways...

RE: Some questions about diplomas

Andrew Kent — Mon, 06 Feb 2017 06:30:07 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

Andrew - are you sure about the 36 month requirement, because that's a full 3 year residency!

For cattle and sheep there is a 12 week requirement, that is far more achievable in real life.

It seems a little disparate.

[/quote]

yes - the supervision requirement is the same for standard vs alternative track and is much higher for European than it was for RCVS diploma.

All the alternative route gets you is the ability to split into chunks rather than in one go so you split 3 years into 5 part time, its meant to be slightly more flexible without reducing any of the requirements.

There are some non-clinical weeks that are part of the 36 month programme that can sometimes be done away from an institution but its a minor component.

Andy

RE: Some questions about diplomas

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 22:37:43 GMT

[quote user="orik"]

You are right but because every residency must be approved by the college before you start it, I can't one reason to make everything more complicate opting for a general practice.

Furthermore there aren't only the UK residency programs but also the programs in other EU countries.

The minimum length for ECVIM externship is 4 weeks

[/quote]

I don't mean to be rude, but either English is not your first language or your autocorrect is being overzealous tonight. I don't quite understand what you are saying.

RE: Some questions about diplomas

David Mills — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 22:20:30 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]

The only advice I would offer is make sure your doing this because your genuinely really interested in the speciality your hoping to pursue and not because you find dealing with the public and other vets difficult and your just trying to get away from them into the apparent sanctuary of the referral world.

[/quote]

This should be a consideration.

I remember coming out of college thinking diploma but you don't really know if you enjoy a subject until you start doing it, and importantly, whether you could do that exclusively for the rest of your career. I couldn't contemplate that when I thought about it. Some people can, which is great, but it's not for everyone. I know several diploma holders who have regretted it afterwards, hated the politics and pressure to publish, the paperwork, the clients, and the financial pressure from bosses, and are now either not working in that area or are out of the profession altogether.

Also consider the certificate route to greater knowledge. As pet insurance increases in price and referral prices head ever skywards then intermediate referrals to certificate holders may well increase, and give you enough mental stimulation amongst the variety and chaos of general practice.

RE: Some questions about diplomas

orik — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 22:07:03 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]As far as I know (although I know more about the sheep and cows) all of the European colleges have to offer an alternative pathway, so you can do them in general practice. You do not need to be in a referral centre or university. You do need a diplomat as a supervisor and all the other requirements are the same (publications, presentations at conferences etc). The length of the residency depends on how long it will take you to achieve the cases and other requirements.[/quote]

You are right but because every residency must be approved by the college before you start it, I can't one reason to make everything more complicate opting for a general practice.

Furthermore there aren't only the UK residency programs but also the programs in other EU countries.

The minimum length for ECVIM externship is 4 weeks

RE: Some questions about diplomas

grumpyoldman — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 21:52:50 GMT

RE: Some questions about diplomas

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 21:50:59 GMT

Andrew - are you sure about the 36 month requirement, because that's a full 3 year residency!

For cattle and sheep there is a 12 week requirement, that is far more achievable in real life.

It seems a little disparate.

RE: Some questions about diplomas

Andrew Kent — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 21:27:15 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

As far as I know (although I know more about the sheep and cows) all of the European colleges have to offer an alternative pathway, so you can do them in general practice. You do not need to be in a referral centre or university. You do need a diplomat as a supervisor and all the other requirements are the same (publications, presentations at conferences etc). The length of the residency depends on how long it will take you to achieve the cases and other requirements.

[/quote]

Alternative tracks exist and could be accessed from practice but the requirement for direct supervision of cases by a diplomat is the same. So you would still have to visit an approved centre (usually in blocks) for a total of 36 months over a longer period. And as a visitor you would then typically be doing it for free rather than getting a (small) payment as you would as a resident.

But I agree that route does provide an option for people who cannot go for a residency.

Andy

RE: Some questions about diplomas

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 20:45:12 GMT

RE: Some questions about diplomas

Andrew Kent — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 17:29:03 GMT

Hi Orik,

I hope things are going well for you so far, good time to start thinking about these things as I agree with James that these things can become harder later on.

Unfortunately residencies are becoming increasingly competitive with most now demanding a period in practice + internship +/- PHD in some cases.

In answer to your specific questions:

[quote user="orik"]1-Which has been your workload (hours/week) during the 3 years? I read on a website that 10 years ago a resident could work more than 40h/week (possibly till 80), does that still happen?[/quote]

This depends where you do a residency and what the caseload is like and how many other residents there are but its a hard few years. I guess I spent about 50 hours per week at work but also had a significant amount of work (reading, working on papers) to do away from work. It does rather take over your life for that period. But the more you put in the more you get out of it!

[quote user="orik"]2-To get the diploma a resident must publish some articles on a international journal, how is the time spent doing research split with the time spent working in the practice?[/quote]

This again depends where you are. Generally if you undertake a residency in a university (which I would advise if possible) you will get weeks off clinics (usually about 25% of your time) to work on publications and satisfy other credential requirements. This should be built into the programme but can be tough. Some private practice residencies will allocate less time to this which can make it more challenging.

[quote user="orik"]1-Can a diplomate work only on referral cases or it is common that they also work as a normal vet (first opinion+common surgeries)? If yes, can you usually find a job only in referrals practices and universities?[/quote]

The majority of diplomates work in either private practice or university referral hospitals but there are one or two that choose to go back to practice. At the moment there are lots of jobs out there for medics, less so for other specialties. But it is a limited market so that will likely change at some point.

[quote user="orik"]2-Have you ever worked part time?[/quote]

Not personally, there are one or two people that do, there is a minimum amount you have to work to keep us specialist credentials so you would typically have to work at least 60% hours.

[quote user="orik"]3-Have you ever worked as locum? If yes, how can you fulfill the renewal requirements without having a "headquarters" you can use for you researches?[/quote]

There are not many people who do this for long, most people who locum are doing so alongside PHD's etc.

[quote user="orik"]4-Speaking about money, which is the common salary of a full time diplomate? I found only offers in the USA starting from 120000$ but I think in UK and EU they pay less.[/quote]

Your earning potential as a diplomate is likely to be significantly higher than in primary care practice but it does depend where you choose to work. University salaries are generally a lot lower and may not be a lot more than primary care. Also potential to earn more through other things like CPD etc. Feel free to PM me if you want more specifics on this.

[quote user="orik"] I would like to know in advance if I am going to spend 4 (inc the internship) years of my life just working and learning with no time for anything else and if, after getting a diploma, the situation will be more or less the same.[/quote]

My work-life balance is generally better as a diplomate. I work a 4 and a bit day week and shorter days than I did in primary practice. But I do on call as do the majority of specialists and there is no real opt out for that for most people.

Hope that helps but do shout if there are more questions.

I'm not sure where you are based in the country but if its something you are thinking about I would urge you to visit both university and private referral hospitals to see what the reality is like - often very difficult to what you expect! I do a lot more paperwork now than I did in practice!

Andy

RE: Some questions about diplomas

Jill Butterworth — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 17:17:51 GMT

I think you might get a different answer, depending on the specialism you choose, and once you are an established specialist, you might have more chance to go part time and have a better work/life balance. In veterinary practice salaries and hours are on supply and demand, so you might want to look at that aspect and the out of hours commitments (that's sometimes a time off grey area...) as even if you worked in a busy referral centre, but there was only enough work for two of each specialism, I don't see how that can work out as any less than a one in two rota, albeit on 2nd call. However, if you were a skin specialist, I guess you could take a chance and have a glass of wine, but I doubt the orthopods or ophthalmologists can do that...

RE: Some questions about diplomas

orik — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 14:27:31 GMT

Thanks for your reply. I know that if it was easy to become a diplomate everyone would do that but my concerns regard the life beyond the veterinary profession. I would like to know in advance if I am going to spend 4 (inc the internship) years of my life just working and learning with no time for anything else and if, after getting a diploma, the situation will be more or less the same. Those are personal considerations and they change from person to person so I am just asking for information to be able to decide on my own if that is the right choice for me.

RE: Some questions about diplomas

James Dunne — Sun, 05 Feb 2017 09:07:46 GMT

Dear Orik

I have not done a residency or Diploma and that door has been firmly closed with the disappearance of the RCVS Diplomas, but if it is something you are interested in, I would urge you to stick at it early in your career. The level of training and knowledge you will acquire in a residency is ahead of what you can learn piecemeal in practice. You will need to train full time, so bear this in mind - if you end up in a situation where you cannot go back to full time study later in your career, then you will probably not have the opportunity again. There is a lot of work involved so forget about counting how many hours a week you will have to work - the more you put in, the more you will get out. Salaries - many Diplomates will tell you that they do not earn any more than some general practitioners but have a high degree of professional satisfaction and are held in high regard by their colleagues. Diplomates do work primarily on referral cases, but some also work in general practice - it depends on your location, field of study etc etc. I know two vets, one of whom is a part-time DECVIM and another a DECVS so the answer to the part-time possibility is 'yes' and I also know a DECVS who works as a locum surgeon, so that is also possible.