the3million

RE: the3million

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 21 Feb 2017 15:58:04 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"][quote user="Bob Russell"]99.99% of UK residents are not going to get involved in active racism even if they have racist beliefs![/quote] That is wishful thinking, they already are. [/quote]

I believe the problem is not that a politician has particular view to impose on their constituents. I believe the problem is when a previously condemned view for historical reasons, becomes accepted amongst a group and a politician endorses that view.

RE: the3million

Bob Russell — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 18:02:38 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

I would like to believe that you are right Bob, but the Home office itself states that only people in full time employment have a right to use the NHS, self employment, part time employment or retirement does not count and as a foreigner, EU or not, you were supposed to have private health insurance. From the 1st of April this year the NHS is obliged to check you out on this.

Mariette

[/quote]

Non-EU residents now have to pay the NHS surcharge and can thereafter use the NHS freely.

EEA citizens and their families are allowed to use the NHS but according to the Home Office the NHS does not count as comprehensive sickness insurance and therefore has an impact on those living in the UK but not exerting their rights to free movement. This primarily affects those who are resident but not economically active eg someone who is not working because they are bringing up small children!

The European Commission is bringing infringement proceedings against the UK government about the situation.

"These infringement proceedings are ongoing. The Commission is still assessing the case, also in light of the recent case law of the Court of Justice concerning conditions Member States can attach to access by economically non-active EU citizens to welfare benefits in order to protect public finances. The Commission will take a position on the next steps in due course."

EU citizens who are exerting their right to free movement do not require medical insurance.

If someone has never worked or been self-employed then the rules state they cannot get residence without having had suitable medical insurance.

The rules were brought in to stop people coming to the UK from within the EU specifically to use the facilities of the NHS.

It will be sorted out I have absolutely no doubt! Those that are here and are not self sufficient or economically active may have to leave. Anyone living here on the basis of a relationship may fall through the cracks initially but steps will have to be taken to protect them. Failure to do this will trigger all sorts of human rights appeals.

RE: the3million

Dinu Catilina — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 17:10:15 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]99.99% of UK residents are not going to get involved in active racism even if they have racist beliefs![/quote]

That is wishful thinking, they already are.

P.S. Edited as what I wrote initially made no sense.

RE: the3million

mariette asselbergs — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 16:57:04 GMT

Mariette

RE: the3million

Bob Russell — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 11:47:15 GMT

Any EU citizen exerting their right to free movement is entitled to NHS treatment.

Therefore anyone working, looking for work etc is covered.

Anyone economically 'inactive' including students need comprehensive sickness insurance. This is not new but the Home Office has decided that NHS does not count. Never been a problem in the past and nobody has faced an issue until now. This change happened in 2011 so not related to Brexit.

It is my understanding that the 'make preparations to leave' letter has been changed to bring it more in line with the realities of the situation rather than the daft and rather nasty phrasing previously produced by the minor civil servants processing the residence and citizenship applications.

I have to say I am getting rather dismayed by the almost panic stations shown by some EU nationals. Bordering on hysteria. I am not clear what agenda some of these people have stirring up fears. Even Freemovement.org states that it fully expects that those with the right to residence will be 'passported' to the new rules. Those without the right to residence do not have the right to residence! The cases so often reported will also be sorted out. It is not possible to deport an EU citizen that has lived here for 20 years, married and had children!

It is very unlikely that any EU citizen here lawfully will face any issues. The few that might are likely to face transitional arrangements that are likely to protect them.

Stupidity by the Home Office (nothing new), poorly managed staff, sending poorly worded refusal notices together with plenty with political agendas have created fear.

VIP lounges allow escape from the hoards. The only ones going through Border Control via a VIP stream are first and business class (labelled by invitation only). The airlines pay to cover the extra costs of this.

Those smashing windows and wearing black shirts in the process are low lifes and live everywhere in the UK and throughout Europe.

I am no fan of UKIP but it is nonsensical to link Nuttall (a bit of an idiot) with the extreme far right.

99.99% of UK residents are not going to get involved in active racism even if they have racist beliefs!

RE: the3million

grumpyoldman — Sun, 19 Feb 2017 12:06:21 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"] This country had one great institution, the NHS. I enthousiastically agreed. But then she said: That is what attracts all you foreigners to come for cheap treatment. [/quote]

That is just rude and ignorant: I do find that most airports have very nice "priority pass" VIP lounges and if you time it right you can get through with virtually no contact with the package CHAVs.

I am hoping Nuttall loses in Stoke central ,it will not take much to have some of them running around with black shirts, smashing windows in the Polish shops.

RE: the3million

Francisco Gomez — Sat, 18 Feb 2017 12:01:49 GMT

If you are an EU citizen working as a vet surgeon in the UK, this might interest you. Do you use the NHS? What would happen if you fall ill today? No rights have been guaranteed, the plan is to use you as part of the negotiations. But what if negotiations fail?

https://youtu.be/Za2FdWmNMh0

The BBC is also echoing this problem today: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39014191

RE: the3million

Bob Russell — Thu, 09 Feb 2017 11:23:43 GMT

Don't tar the whole country with the same brush! Some in the UK are pig ignorant and we do have a press that tends to stir things up wherever possible.

My wife has had one run in in Primark with a bigoted monster. When she goes out with friends it is not uncommon to be asked 'how much'? Apparently all Thai's are ready to jump into bed with anyone for £20. Bad move as she is more than able to defend her honour! Kicked one bloke!

Nice to have a witty response for these idiots 'No better and cheaper at home and no sitting around in casualty?'

Ignorance and bad press pandering to the lowest common denominator.

RE: the3million

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Wed, 08 Feb 2017 22:27:57 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]An English lady in the queue behind me then started a conversation: This country had one great institution, the NHS. I enthousiastically agreed. But then she said: That is what attracts all you foreigners to come for cheap treatment. [/quote]

thats no lady , what a spiteful thing to say

RE: the3million

Dinu Catilina — Wed, 08 Feb 2017 21:47:12 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]But then she said: That is what attracts all you foreigners to come for cheap treatment. [/quote]

Bitch.

RE: the3million

mariette asselbergs — Wed, 08 Feb 2017 20:01:18 GMT

Brexit is here following Trump as poodles.

Returning from a long weekend in Naples 22.30 at Birmingham Internagtional Airport:

A one hour long queue to pass the new machines replacing passport control.

Many people very irritated by the delays.

I had a good overview and could predict that all black and Asian extraction passengers were rejected after many minugtes of frantically trying to get their purple passports through.

I was also rejected because I was wearing a wig over my chemo bald head, and only after being told to remove it, cdid the machine - amazingly - accept me.

An English lady in the queue behind me then started a conversation: This country had one great institution, the NHS. I enthousiastically agreed. But then she said: That is what attracts all you foreigners to come for cheap treatment.

After 15 years of paying taxes and NI, am I now a health tourist?

From the 1st of April all foreigners have to justify that they have a right to use the NHS. Not clear how. And I am in the middle of my treatment, still working, although not full time and not as an employee, still paying my taxes. And where do I go if they decide I have no rights? (Rhetorical question!)

Mariette

RE: the3million

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 08 Feb 2017 18:34:26 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Nonsense but the way the EU have decided it shall be.

[/quote]

In this specific issue, the EU doesn't have to have a say. If the UK doesn't want it to be.

[quote]

I have every confidence there will be a fast track system formed

[/quote]

I hope you're right. And we are not the tool to use when the deal turns sour.

But if we are, will you agree Bob Russell, that it would be the wrong thing to do?

RE: the3million

Bob Russell — Wed, 08 Feb 2017 17:49:31 GMT

He has not been told to leave. He has been told to make preparation to leave!

He did not include his passport. A copy will not do and it is made abundantly clear that a copy will not do!

This application was rejected before the referendum anyway.

This is just how the Home Office / UK Visas & Immigration work. They are a bunch of ill trained ars*holes working within the UK. Better staff usually outside the EU.

They are junior civil servants doing a 'man's' job. They are never wrong and can be as aggressive and harsh as they like. They are never helpful! They are never wrong because they can hide behind the system. All complaints go to a special office that deals just with complaints.

I have had the misfortune to deal with them for years.

The rejected applications are either because those processing them are idiots or paperwork sent in is incomplete. They do not ask questions, they just say no!

Try applying for a Schengen visa from the Spanish authorities and you will face similar issues. For example they require written proof from the British Embassy that confirms a couple are married. There is no such document and the embassy will not provide it, just a letter confirming they don't provide such a letter!

I have every confidence there will be a fast track system formed but equally that if they say provide document X and you do not then the application will be rejected. Some rules (including whether national insurance counts as medical insurance) have yet to be written!

Edit: nobody has turned their backs on anybody. EU nationals have the same freedom of movement rights they always had. Rules will change when the rules and timing have been defined. I understand the worry and frustration but as we have been told by so many EU politicians, we should not really be discussing anything Brexit related until article 50 has been triggered! Nonsense but the way the EU have decided it shall be.

RE: the3million

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 08 Feb 2017 16:31:14 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

It could weaken the position of the UK government when it tries to ensure citizens living in Europe.

It has been made pretty clear that this is the first thing to be discussed and sorted out. Hopefully both sides will be non-confrontational over this.

[/quote]

The problem is as followed:

1.- EU nationals are included in the Brexit deal.

2.- some years (2+?) there might be no deal. So all agreed falls apart.

3.- There is no legal framework for EU nationals.

Brits abroad are actually calling to have EU nationals rights of residence recognised unilaterally. It is in their own interest to have this done on their respective countries of residence too!. I can't see what the issue is beyond using many of us as one of the most important tools to bargain with. I'm fine, I'm a vet surgeon, make enough money for private medical insurance if it comes to that and I'm necessary.

But there are others. Many have contributed to the UK system for years and the UK government is turning their back to them.

Another example?:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/dec/29/german-neuroscientist-told-to-leave-uk-residency-application-rejected-monique-hawkins

I've got a few more.. about 3 million.

RE: the3million

Bob Russell — Wed, 08 Feb 2017 15:27:49 GMT

It could weaken the position of the UK government when it tries to ensure citizens living in Europe.

It has been made pretty clear that this is the first thing to be discussed and sorted out. Hopefully both sides will be non-confrontational over this.

I am limited in my rights to live in my own home in Thailand and there is no chance of residency! Hopefully things will be a lot better than that for UK and EU citizens.

RE: the3million

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 08 Feb 2017 06:54:03 GMT

https://neweuropeans.net/article/1723/brits-abroad-call-immediate-unilateral-guarantees-eu-citizens-uk

Can you think any other reason why the UK government declines an amendment that both UK citizens abroad and EU here want?

RE: the3million

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 31 Jan 2017 17:00:34 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Spain makes a lot of money from British that choose to live there.

[/quote]

That mightve been true in the past. Nowadays, we have a very aged British population that need social services there much more than EU nationals here.

RE: the3million

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 31 Jan 2017 16:56:54 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]Yep, and we can argue who is being more to blame all day long.[/quote]

Have you lobbied the Spanish Govt??

[/quote]

the3million is lobbying the EU too. Not just the UK.

RE: the3million

Bob Russell — Tue, 31 Jan 2017 12:38:28 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]Yep, and we can argue who is being more to blame all day long.[/quote]

Have you lobbied the Spanish Govt??

Mr Rahoy has been very blunt, even aggressive in his stance about British Expats in Spain making it quite clear that they will be used as bargaining chips to sweeten the Article 50 negotiation when it comes around. Perhaps if the EU rat-pack were a little more concilliatory then you and our other EU colleagues in the UK would feel more comfortable.

[/quote]

Sums up the whole process! Antagonism breeds antagonism.

EU leaders are behaving like spoilt children/bullies. They have been very quick to threaten and prophetise doom and gloom to shore up a duff organisation so it is only sensible to wait until negotiations take place.

Spain makes a lot of money from British that choose to live there. If they decide to cut off their noses to spite their faces then we all lose.

A lot of the bitching seems to have subsided for the time being but it must have come as a shock that British politicians are prepared to accept a hard Brexit and deal with it.

The UK may struggle but I suspect the EU has far worse to deal with in the future.

RE: the3million

Malcolm Ness — Tue, 31 Jan 2017 12:20:28 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]Yep, and we can argue who is being more to blame all day long.[/quote]

Have you lobbied the Spanish Govt??

RE: the3million

mariette asselbergs — Tue, 31 Jan 2017 10:38:07 GMT

The Dutch Embassy officially says that there is no need to apply for permanent residence because our rights cannot be tampered with until Britain is officially out of the EU (just triggering article 50 cannot lead to interfering with out rights) and probably even some years after that.

However, they also give advice to get an ID card to hand over when applying so they don't seem to be totally sure of this secure position for the next few years.

RE: the3million

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 30 Jan 2017 14:46:27 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

EU citizens here and British citizens in Europe are bargaining chips.

If the UK accepts EU citizens right to stay now, would the EU do the same?

The rhetoric coming from EU politicians has not been anything but aggressive and unpleasant. Ms May has decided to remain quiet for the time being until EU leaders will start talks.

[/quote]

Yep, and we can argue who is being more to blame all day long.

If you read the first sentence of the3million website it says this:

'the3million is a not for profit group and support network which campaigns to preserve the rights of EU citizens in the UK and British citizens in Europe after Brexit.'

RE: the3million

Bob Russell — Mon, 30 Jan 2017 14:20:37 GMT

EU citizens here and British citizens in Europe are bargaining chips.

If the UK accepts EU citizens right to stay now, would the EU do the same?

The rhetoric coming from EU politicians has not been anything but aggressive and unpleasant. Ms May has decided to remain quiet for the time being until EU leaders will start talks.

Clearly the government felt it needed some thinking time as I doubt anyone in power really thought the vote would go the way it did!

RE: the3million

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 30 Jan 2017 14:00:00 GMT

I dont disagree with you Bob. The situation is as it is. One way or another the UK gov. has the last word in this. The UK gov. if not the full blame, it is responsible in agreeing treating EU citizens as bargain chips.

RE: the3million

Bob Russell — Mon, 30 Jan 2017 13:34:08 GMT

Ms May did attempt to sort this out with EU leaders very early on. The response was that she had to invoke Article 50 before they EU leaders would discuss anything.

They have brought this one firmly on you!

Pretty silly for them to suggest applying for PR when it could have been sorted out at least informally between grown ups at the most senior level. Instead leaders thought playing hard ball with peoples lives was more appropriate.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/politico-merkel-will-not-negotiate-citizen-rights-before-brexit-talks-begin-2016-11