Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 23 Jan 2017 17:03:46 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]For interest, compare the mg/kg fipronil and s-methoprene in broadline to frontline combo.[/quote]

Interesting

In the broadline data sheet - Minimum effective dose 10mg/kg

Frontline spot on - 0.5ml contains Fipronil 10%w/v = 0.05ml = 50mg

Frontline spray - 7.5mg - 15mg / kilo (I always use the max dose, maybe more as assured it is super safe)

Therefore if you use the pipette on a 5kg and don't get it all on the coat it's under the effective dose, but if you use the spray and use the proper amount you'll get above the minimum dose.

Does that explain why the spray is better and we're seeing resistance simply because of 'bad packaging?'

Or is my maths wrong?

Neil

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

Bob Russell — Fri, 20 Jan 2017 17:25:44 GMT

Controlling fleas should reduce the risk of Dipylidium so better flea treatment leads to less tapeworm problem.

We do recommend imidocloprid products as our over the counter product but I would not pay for the "poshed up" version for cats.

I don't have many fans at Bayer!!!

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

ruths — Fri, 20 Jan 2017 16:12:25 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

[quote user="ruths"]

[quote user="Charlotte Marshall"]

We are finding advocate better for fleas in a lot of cases now rather than frontline.

The reason I sometimes want to use milbemax rather than droncit which we usually use in animals on advocate is the size of the tablets. Droncit is not supposed to be used in animals less than 2.5 kg and while I agree most dogs that small are unlikely to be big tapeworm risks some cats certainly are. Milbemax are much smaller and therefore easier to give a cat than droncit or drontal regardless of the size of cat.

[/quote]

so why don't you use an imidocloprid spot on?

eg advantage or an off the shelf?

[/quote]

But most of these cats at high risk from tapeworms have Dipylidium (prodigious production of segments!) and this is because flea control is failing.

I cannot remember the last time someone complained about tapeworm segments in cats. Largely because we don't rely on fipronil nor spot on versions of imidocloprid which I don't find last a full month.

Over the counter is an imidocloprid product but spot on Activyl or Vectra Felis, Seresto or ideally Bravecto now!

Advantage is so widely available and used with the same standards of compliance that fipronil products are! It was never as good as Frontline in the old days. Fipronil a complete waste of space except as a tick product IMO.

[/quote]

my point was that if you find advocate works against fleas then use advantage for the fleas and droncit or milbemx for the worms -inludijg tapeworms

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

Bob Russell — Fri, 20 Jan 2017 09:50:32 GMT

I explain to owners that I consider there to be tolerance to fipronil as opposed to resistance. Higher doses do work as can be shown when you use the spray.

Resistance has a very specific definition and I am unaware of proof of it. I bet it is developing!

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

Rob Loxley — Thu, 19 Jan 2017 19:00:17 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]how come Broadline is so popular?[/quote]

For interest, compare the mg/kg fipronil and s-methoprene in broadline to frontline combo.
I am of the opinion that true fipronil resistance is very rare (else every other parasite manufacturer would be publising reams of cases of resistance) and that other issues predominate in fipronil failures, but that often a good solution is to use a different product where other such issues seem to be less.

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

Bob Russell — Thu, 19 Jan 2017 15:19:10 GMT

We found Broadline ineffective in about 50% of the small number we tried it on.

My 'definition' of failure is active fleas and an abundance of flea 'dirt' despite regular use of a product. Helped by the disappearance of both active fleas and flea dirt once a better product has been used for long enough.

Fipronil used to work well. I do not believe pets have changed, owner compliance has changed or the product has changed. What has changed is the results! I will admit that the spray can still work well presumably because the dose is higher.

Merial and others will be reluctant to talk in terms of resistance because it would be necessary to identify a genetic mutation that has arisen.

Failure of efficacy is not the same thing!

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 19 Jan 2017 11:49:22 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Fipronil a complete waste of space except as a tick product IMO.[/quote]

Well I'm a believer (but I do recommend as per practice policy, let's get that out of the way)

It acts on the nervous system in 2 ways and relies on the animal grooming it off. It takes 5 hours to act on the flea, not an instant kill. Owners/vets see fleas and say 'resistance'

If you talk to Merial (sure they make it) they say no evidence of resistance

Frontline started to get a bad name when the spot on came out. It's all about compliance and proper application. The packaging is rubbish. If you talk to a client in depth there is always a breakdown in timings/application, again the packaging information is poor.

However the spray works really well if applied properly and you sell the 250ml canister to a client with a house full of cats it's very economic.

Finally if it was so bad, how come Broadline is so popular?

Neil

PS We use program on our 3 cats, once every 6 months, just because it's new doesn't make it better

PPS If I had a dog, Bravecto and Milbemax. (Though Seresto collars are fabulous)

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

Bob Russell — Thu, 19 Jan 2017 11:35:31 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]

[quote user="Charlotte Marshall"]

We are finding advocate better for fleas in a lot of cases now rather than frontline.

[/quote]

so why don't you use an imidocloprid spot on?

eg advantage or an off the shelf?

[/quote]

But most of these cats at high risk from tapeworms have Dipylidium (prodigious production of segments!) and this is because flea control is failing.

Over the counter is an imidocloprid product but spot on Activyl or Vectra Felis, Seresto or ideally Bravecto now!

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 19 Jan 2017 09:57:04 GMT

[quote user="Charlotte Marshall"]We are finding advocate better for fleas in a lot of cases now rather than frontline.[/quote]Fipronil stopped working a long time ago and we've stopped selling it for many years except to the odd unregistered client on the basis that it is better than nothing. We have an endless stream of flea ridden animals coming in whose owners have been treating them with Frontline from the pet shop. I think there is a compliance issue with the design of the tubes and volume and consistency of the product but that is not enough alone to explain is lack of efficacy. I'm surprised you haven't come this conclusion already most others have.

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 19 Jan 2017 09:21:55 GMT

[quote user="Nicola M"]Now I work in an area where lungworm is very uncommon and advocate is not recommended routinely. Maybe I'm naive but I would think that a large proportion of practices that have never seen lungworm probably don't recommend routine prophylaxis against it....[/quote]

There's not really any lungworm where I am either - we've even looked for it in suspect cases and never found it.

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 18 Jan 2017 08:43:49 GMT

Bob Advocate simply isn't effective enough if the animal has a heavy lungworm burden.

Wynne

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

ruths — Wed, 18 Jan 2017 07:51:11 GMT

[quote user="Charlotte Marshall"]

We are finding advocate better for fleas in a lot of cases now rather than frontline.

[/quote]

so why don't you use an imidocloprid spot on?

eg advantage or an off the shelf?

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

Claudia Niehoegen — Tue, 17 Jan 2017 22:23:51 GMT

Is nobody using advantage? Still works for fleas in our area. So much cheaper than advocate, in boxes of 4. We don't see many ticks here but I have been caught out on holidays in Scotland when Pets at Home couldn't sell me frontline as their SQP had gone home. We sell a lot of bravecto for dogs, not so much for cats

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

Nicola Cole — Tue, 17 Jan 2017 21:52:54 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

If Advocate is so good why do specialists not use it for treatment? The hype over lungworm in the vast majority of the country is massively overdone. It is a risk but for most patients statistically pretty small.

Whilst not denying the nastiness of lungworm I believe that for most practices it is a triumph of marketing over reality.

[/quote]

When I worked in a practice in an area that saw numerous lungworm cases we advised advocate monthly and subjectively saw a decrease in number of cases. We used panacur to treat based on specialist advice when we first stated seeing cases-theory was it worked quicker

Now I work in an area where lungworm is very uncommon and advocate is not recommended routinely. Maybe I'm naive but I would think that a large proportion of practices that have never seen lungworm probably don't recommend routine prophylaxis against it....

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

Charlotte Marshall — Tue, 17 Jan 2017 20:29:43 GMT

We are finding advocate better for fleas in a lot of cases now rather than frontline.

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:07:11 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]The hype over lungworm in the vast majority of the country is massively overdone. It is a risk but for most patients statistically pretty small. Whilst not denying the nastiness of lungworm I believe that for most practices it is a triumph of marketing over reality.[/quote]We are in a high risk area and when you've seen 4 dogs try to bleed out in the space of 12 months you tend to take it seriously. I would not use Advocate to treat it but it has been good at prevention so far in as much as I've not seen any cases for several years since we started using Advocate routinely in dogs. I'm sure you could argue that proves nothing statistically but I'm convinced so I'm not changing any time soon.

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Not finding the imidocloprid products that reliable (even had a couple of Seresto dogs hooching with fleas) and not that water tolerant.[/quote]No problem with lack of efficacy against fleas here but there has been in cats with Stronghold as reported in another thread and we are starting to switch cats on Stronghold to Advocate now.

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

Bob Russell — Tue, 17 Jan 2017 12:43:34 GMT

Monthly milbemycin seems a perfectly good compromise for low level risk areas. Nexguard Spectra does not have its licence yet but apparently this is in the system.

Not finding the imidocloprid products that reliable (even had a couple of Seresto dogs hooching with fleas) and not that water tolerant. I agree there is no perfect product but for us tick control is high priority.

Whilst not denying the nastiness of lungworm I believe that for most practices it is a triumph of marketing over reality.

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 17 Jan 2017 12:03:53 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]My question would be why use Advocate? Mediocre flea control, mediocre roundworm control and no tick control.[/quote]Erm....lungworm. I agree the roundworm control is mediocre which is why I want use something else at the same time at least in puppies but no problem with fleas, unlike with Frontline which simply doesn't work. Lungworm is my major concern and Advocate/Prinovox is the line of last resistance for that, we have little problem with ticks and never diagnosed a tick-borne disease in this area. If a client has a tick issue then we will recommend Nexaguard as an addition. The bottom line is, as we all know, that there is no one product that does everything but clients don't like using multiple products and Advocate comes closest.

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

Bob Russell — Tue, 17 Jan 2017 10:48:51 GMT

Prinavox is Advocate.

Same production line, same product. Bayer clearly made the decision to make the generic as well as the original to maintain market share.

My question would be why use Advocate? Mediocre flea control, mediocre roundworm control and no tick control.

Plenty of other combinations out there!

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

ruths — Tue, 17 Jan 2017 10:28:41 GMT

This has been an issue in the data sheets for at least 7years (that's when I started using advocate.

If you feelnthe need to use both theN you prob should use milbemycin orally first and then waiting to use the moxidectin spot on a few days later

That makes pharmalogical sense

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 16 Jan 2017 19:17:03 GMT

[quote user="Stephanie Fursland"]Prinovox (which is the same as Advocate)[/quote]

They contain the same chemicals,

Prinovox spot on for large dogs - (2.5ml) contains as active ingredients: Imidacloprid (250mg) and Moxidectin (62.5mg)

Advocate - 2.5 ml (250 mg imidacloprid, 62.5 mg moxidectin)

It's there as well

Interactions

During treatment with this veterinary medicinal product no other antiparasitic macrocyclic lactone should be administered.

Neil

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

Stephanie Wellings — Mon, 16 Jan 2017 17:46:16 GMT

Our practice policy is Milpro and Prinovox (which is the same as Advocate). We always advise to do them a week or more apart, and we don't have lots of reactions - but the Milpro is basically to cover for tapeworm as Prinovox does everything else.

However, after reading this forum I asked our pharmacy guru about it - apparently we have considered using Droncit instead but for larger dogs this means three or four tablets, which is a lot for owners to give. She is going to get in contact with the rep (Milpro and Prinovox are made by the same company so hopefully they will be able to advise on their use together).

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

ruths — Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:55:39 GMT

Do you believe that the febental and pyrantel are better than moxidectin?

if you do, use drontal. If not then why overtreat? Just use praziQuantel

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

ruths — Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:53:47 GMT

Why would you use milbemycin products togher with advocate, though?

the spectrum of activity is so similar and although potential for toxicity is small, it just doesn't make sense to use them together if all you want is praziquantel

Why not use praziquantel on its own?

RE: Advocate and Macrocyclic Lactones - Be very careful

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 16 Jan 2017 15:21:46 GMT

Looks like we'l have to start using Drontal or Prazitel for tapeworm then!