"Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

Bob Russell — Mon, 23 Jan 2017 14:07:28 GMT

Travellers to the middle east often have two passports because some countries will not allow entry/be difficult if someone has been to Israel!

As I understand it you do need to provide a valid reason for requesting a second passport, this does include the Israel/Arab issue plus the long processing time for some visas.

Not sure what the rules are for non-UK passports but suspect they are broadly similar.

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

Julie Lavis — Sat, 21 Jan 2017 12:42:17 GMT

I meant 2 passports, duplicates, of the same nationality

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

Neil Wheadon — Sat, 21 Jan 2017 11:23:26 GMT

[quote user="Julie Lavis"]Can EU vets get a second passport? Airline pilots often have 2 or 3, one to carry with them on the flight and others to submit for visa applications.[/quote]

Do you mean a different national passport or a duplicate?

UK passport holders can have 2. The reason is simply because many embassies want a passport to process a visa, so those travelling frequently need two, as this process can take weeks (especially India)

Neil

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

Julie Lavis — Sat, 21 Jan 2017 11:18:22 GMT

Can EU vets get a second passport? Airline pilots often have 2 or 3, one to carry with them on the flight and others to submit for visa applications. A second passport might help so one can be submitted for immigration applications and the other used for travel?

As a community of MRCVS we could employ an immigration agent to act on the behalf of our colleagues. Correctly presented paperwork increases the chances of success. If the agent has a 95%success rate our colleagues would feel more secure in submitting pages of documentation and thousands of pounds to achieve residency / nationality. If our agent is highly unsuccessful we then have the facts to lobby on behalf of our colleagues.

i appreciate these are simplistic ideas, perhaps others could refine them?

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

Bob Russell — Thu, 19 Jan 2017 16:50:16 GMT

If she was born here and has lived here all her life then she does not have a problem. If she was born before 1983 citizenship is discretionary but it is the convention that applicants are treated in an equivalent way to those born later.

The UK will not throw anyone out that is entitled to be here. I know some stupid letters have been sent out by a pretty useless part of the Home Office.

Some EU politicians have been making very hardline comments regarding Brexit and rights but nobody settled is going to be thrown out! There are no facilities to accomplish this and the courts are not going to become bogged down with appeals, they cannot cope with the load now.

Sadly the statements coming from EU leaders have made me feel very un-European which is very sad. I am a European but no fan of todays EU.

I suppose the stupidity of the low life British who are creating trouble should not surprise me but I feel very let down when I hear some of the behaviour being shown towards EU citizens. Every country has its scum and events like this bring them to the fore.

British citizenship can only automatically be passed on one generation but any child born in the UK to a British parent is automatically British. A child born overseas to a British parent is also British but cannot automatically pass that on to their children. (British by descent or British otherwise than descent if anyone is that interested!!)

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

Claudia Niehoegen — Thu, 19 Jan 2017 16:08:39 GMT

Others probably are more qualified to answer the technical points of the question but I'll say what I know.

Being born in a country does not make you a citizen of it. Residency rights are something else again.

In mixed marriages the child may qualify for either or both nationalities, depending on the rules of the countries involved.

If children are independent they hold passports and might need to prove their right to residency.

I worry a bit about my daughter who is self-employed and not married. she was born here and has lived here all her life.

I cannot imagine the UK will throw us out, make us sell our practice, stop access to the NHS that we Have paid into for almost 30 years, or not pay our pension. All scary ideas that have been rumoured.

Daily discussions, difficult to remain positive in an area with a definite brexit vote.

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

Bob Russell — Thu, 19 Jan 2017 16:08:22 GMT

Not British citizens unless one parent is British!

However if they were born in the UK on or after 1st January 1983 and are over ten years old and have lived in the UK until they were 10 yrs old and have spent no more than 90 days outside the UK in each of the first ten years then they can apply to register as British using Form T!!!

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/application-to-register-as-british-citizen-form-t

The rules on EU citizens living in the UK have not been decided let alone implemented so the letters being sent out are only correct (if they are at all) under the present rules for non-EU citizens. There is no legal right to deport EU nationals except under very strict conditions (usually serious criminality).

There does not appear to be a correct standard letter to send out to EU nationals! They are entitled to be here and do not have to prepare to leave. Worst case scenario if EU countries fail to protect UK citizens is that EU nationals may have to leave the UK to apply for settlement.

Not going to happen unless there is serious problems with negotiations.

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

Elisabeth Knappett — Thu, 19 Jan 2017 15:45:14 GMT

Am I understanding it right that if (and please don't take offense at my clumsy wording) a non-UK EU national has children born in the UK, they are not classed as UK citizens and will be asked to leave to return to their parents home country? Even if they are old enough to be independent of said parents?

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

Bob Russell — Tue, 17 Jan 2017 15:38:56 GMT

No there will not be the staff to do it at the moment but they will find them if they need to. Most of the 85 pages can be skipped over as they will not apply.

It is just about the quickest application form UKVI have created! I have filled in so many over the years that I was left scratching my head because I had this one done in 20 minutes! True, I have years of experience filling in UKBA/UKVI forms but most sections are not relevant to each applicant. It would be much easier if they created one for each application type but then people would be confused which form to use.

Home office staff have approximately 10-30 minutes per application so I doubt they have the ability or inclination to study the applications beyond making sure the right boxes have been filled in correctly with the right answers.

My understanding is that the refusals so far have been largely due to failure to provide approved ID or other documents but one lady has been queried because of a lack of so called health insurance despite paying national insurance.

These are largely nonsensical issues especially the listing of absences. For a non-EU citizen it is unlikely they would be skipping back and forth so regularly as someone in the EU. It is still a requirement to note absences to qualify for naturalisation.

So much a work yet to be started therefore the Home office should not be threatening action.

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:32:01 GMT

The problem Bob Russell is about detail - To obtain a Permanent Residency card (and prove your right to live in the UK after being an EU citizen), you need to complete a 85 page long application form that has many specific requirements like, 'How many days, which actual dates where you out of the UK in the year 2 of your application?' I could answer this easily because I can provide records of my frequent visits to Spain, even tho they are short through my emailed flight tickets. But in reality, Is there the time and people there to process 3 million applications and check that all these details are correct and there isn't someone trying to pull a fast one?

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

Bob Russell — Tue, 17 Jan 2017 11:16:59 GMT

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/28/dutch-woman-with-two-british-children-told-to-leave-uk-after-24-years

This is a case of incompetence and lack of direction by Home office staff. They have minutes to make decisions (even those costing thousands of pounds!). They will reject and not worry about fall out because the same staff do not deal with the consequences. There is a long appeal process that keeps people in limbo for months or years. This is the world of non-EU visa applications that I have inhabited for years!

None of these letters are enforceable because the UK remains part of the EU. Once Article 50 is invoked then I hope the status of EU nationals (including UK nationals living in the EU) will be formalised. I am confident that as long as the EU is sensible then it will be straight forward for existing EU nationals to remain in the UK subject to limited rules.

I find this posturing by the Home Office offensive (but not a surprise) and many could face a trip home should the same draconian immigration rules come into force for EU as non-EU citizens.

The wording is unnecessarily worrying for people but rejections for naturalisation or residence permits will continue unless applicant fit the requirements exactly (many will not). So many errors are made by the Home office and they put up a massive wall to prevent error correction (they don't make mistakes!!!) until appeals go through. UK Visas and Immigration lose a heck of a lot of these cases and not-infrequently don't even turn up!

The system is so flawed and although it is difficult to stop people worrying about these stupid letters, they are just that, stupid.

Marriage has not allowed automatic UK citizenship since the year dot and non-EU citizens get through immigration almost as quickly as EU citizens do. It is also convention that an EU citizen and a non-EU spouse/family can go through the EU channel together!

Truly settled EU nationals will have little problem IMO (the system could not cope with the processing problems). Those without family ties or employment may find life a bit tougher!

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

Bob Russell — Mon, 16 Jan 2017 15:59:28 GMT

The Home Office is playing hard ball just as the EU are.

The EU are stating no concessions so 'hard Brexit' is the default position. The EU have made no efforts to suggest UK citizens will be allowed to remain in the EU.

The Home Office have clearly been instructed to play the hard line cards. They are a very unpleasant and particularly useless organisation to deal with.

This will be resolved but until someone starts discussion rather than posturing and chest beating then EU citizens will be treated as non-EU citizens are at the moment. This may involve returning to the home country to make an application.

A nasty situation and nasty letters being sent out but these are nasty people to deal with (most are incompetent or bordering on it. Others just like to say No!

They refused a Fvisa for a friend of ours (resident in Switzerland) on the grounds that she might have to work to pay for the visit. Ignoring the effect that husband is worth millions and technically she is entitles to turn up at a border and demand entry under freedom of movement rules.

Tough to ignore these letters but they are likely to be posturing!

Sadly it looks as if the EU is so weak that it will only survive by bullying nations into remaining. It will not survive in its present form, long term. You cannot reliably bully someone into staying in a relationship

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

Francisco Gomez — Fri, 13 Jan 2017 12:35:42 GMT

I see your 1 star and I raise you to 5 stars and 1 Like.

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

Francisco Gomez — Fri, 13 Jan 2017 11:53:00 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I'm also scared of World War 3,... A lot of individual, and therefore non-threatening states are far more likely to be left alone. [/quote]

the UK would not be left alone for two reasons: 1.- It has nuclear weapons which would immediately force any Western state to seek alliances. and 2.- It has the benefit of occupying one of the UN permanent seats, which comes with the responsibility having to take action. http://www.un.org/en/sections/un-charter/chapter-v/

[quote]

Antisemitism is unfortunately bound to rise with increasing Muslim immigration, for those 2 religions are traditional enemies.

[/quote]

bugger all to do with it all

[quote]

Francisco. Mark Carney who was a Remainer now thinks Brexit will hurt the rest of the EU more than us. My opinion is we'll be immeasurably better off

[/quote]

Wynne, Mark Carney has no choice but to say this now.

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 12 Jan 2017 16:34:55 GMT

I'm also scared of World War 3, but I think an EU superstate, with it's own army as a possible trigger factor. Remember it was international collaboration that caused the appalling bloodbath of the First World War. If it had just been Austro-Hungary and Serbia, and everybody else had kept out of it, then it would have been over in a matter of weeks. Putin and Trump could easily become close allies, and if the EU opposes them, it will be war. A lot of individual, and therefore non-threatening states are far more likely to be left alone.

Antisemitism is unfortunately bound to rise with increasing Muslim immigration, for those 2 religions are traditional enemies.

Francisco. Mark Carney who was a Remainer now thinks Brexit will hurt the rest of the EU more than us. My opinion is we'll be immeasurably better off

Wynne

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 12 Jan 2017 15:45:11 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]From experience this is what I will predict will happen and we will leave in great numbers "voluntarily".[/quote]You forgot to add that in the wake of Brexit antisemitism and nationalism will worsen across Europe, the EU will fall apart, Trump will withdraw American support for NATO, Germany will rearm, in the light of its perceived NATO weakness Russia will invade and re-occupy the former states of the USSR, Germany will respond to the threat on its borders, someone will get trigger happy and WW3 will start. Fun times.

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

mariette asselbergs — Thu, 12 Jan 2017 12:23:06 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

Well I'm a dedicated remoaner but agree with Arlo.

There was pressure to sort this out quickly but Mrs May doesn't want to give anything up from an already weak deck of cards that she has. I'd be amazed if there was mass deportation because ultimately we are a mature democracy with a tolerant disposition.

Neil

[/quote]

There will be no mass deportations with police and soldiers etc. No need at all.

There are many examples of countries (their governments) who have successfully isolated certain groups and made life impossible for them. It doesn't need much really.

From experience this is what I will predict will happen and we will leave in great numbers "voluntarily".

We will be blocked from access to the NHS

Without a permanent residence permit we will be denied to have a bank account in the UK. This is already a rule in Europe and my bank account that I had since I was a student was closed in 2005 since i am not a resident in Holland. Absurdly I am receiving a Dutch state pension but cannot have a Dutch bank account to receive it. Of course without a British bank account you cannot work here or function much.

Foreigners will no longer be allowed to work self employed (just say "Polish plumbers" and the 52% will cheer you on). This will not apply to the mega investors like Trump of course. But the small ones like us will be forced to sell to a British owner and have to work as employees.

Foreigners will no longer be able to have a British driver's license.

Foreigners will no longer be able to get a mortgage to buy property because of their temporary stay here depending on fulfilling conditions like full employment.

Foreigners will have to leave once they retire, become ill or go on maternity leave.

This morning's Guardian published a proposal that foreigners will have to pay an annual levy of at least £1000 for the privilege to work here.

I can think of a few more annoying measures which will do the job, silently and civilised.

Mariette

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 10 Jan 2017 18:47:15 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

I sincerely hope that having read Francisco's, Anna's, Mariettes and Sammy's et al posts, all those who voted Brexit are feeling a little sheepish right now. But I doubt it.

[/quote]

Thank you Martin.

I dont however hold any grudge against ppl who voted Brexit. I actually feel that most (not all) have been taken for a ride. The strategy, either conscious or not, by the Leave campaign then (and T. May now) of not telling what the plan is, really works. Have the plan been explained, Im absolutely certain that the vote would have been lost, I heard in a radio program that only 1 in 25 people have a similar view of what Brexit would be. Clearly, if you are not happy with plan, it is a lot more likely to either vote to Remain or not even bother voting. Since the difference was <2%, even with this strategy, the vote would have been undoubtly resulted in a resounding Remain. What if tomorrow they tell you that the single market access will stop but immigration would be fully controlled? Many would be more than happy but not every Brexiteer agree with this at all! In the case of Wynne, Im sorry, You are delusional. Brexit will definetly hurt the UK more. The UK is a very smal country in comparison, financially, in consumer numbers, in buyimg power, and even politically in comparison. But Im happy for you to live in your cloud, at least someone's happy with it all.

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 10 Jan 2017 18:22:06 GMT

I think we're in a very strong position, because Brexit will hurt the rest of the EU much more than it will hurt us, so they're the ones who will have to crawl. I know Angela Merkel is talking big, but she's made herself so unpopular that I doubt she will be there in another year.

Wynne

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 10 Jan 2017 18:01:33 GMT

Well I'm a dedicated remoaner but agree with Arlo.

Neil

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

Claudia Niehoegen — Tue, 10 Jan 2017 17:36:40 GMT

We are three EU partners in a busy SA practice, no assistants. Our nurses are worried because we are. While we wait to learn whether we will be thrown out we watch helplessly while our £ savings , i.e. our pension, decreases in value against the €, thus making a return to the "mother country" even less feasible. Our children have grown up in this country and are settled, own property, have UK partners. They would not want to move to a strange country even though they hold its passport.

I hope "something will turn up", but can feel my optimism starting to wobble.

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 10 Jan 2017 16:21:13 GMT

Anna Battek-Kosiorowska, mariette asselbergs, Sammy82 - thanks for posting your stories. There is often something, I dunno, rather dehumanising about the whole Brexit debate, and it's really illuminating (and important) to read about how these things affect individual people.

I didn't know you have to surrender your passport for 6 months to apply for British citizenship. That seems bonkers to me. I'd love to know why.

Personally, whilst I can imagine that it must be very unsettling to be in your shoes, I think the risk of you being told to leave the UK is very close to 0. Apart from a multitude of other reasons, it would just be so bloody unfair, and I think this is, at its heart, a fair country.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I sincerely hope that having read Francisco's, Anna's, Mariettes and Sammy's et al posts, all those who voted Brexit are feeling a little sheepish right now. But I doubt it.[/quote]

I'm a remain-voting-brexiteer. I'm not remotely sheepish about wanting to leave an undemocratic, unaccountable, bureaucratic behemoth. But I am angry that people are being left in limbo like this. I sort of think that the UK and the EU should, before they do ANYTHING else, come to an agreement concerning EU nationals living in Britain, and Britons living abroad. To my mind, this should be negotiated separately and before trade / law / security etc. etc. And they should get a bloody move on.

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 10 Jan 2017 15:48:04 GMT

I sincerely hope that having read Francisco's, Anna's, Mariettes and Sammy's et al posts, all those who voted Brexit are feeling a little sheepish right now. But I doubt it.

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

mariette asselbergs — Mon, 09 Jan 2017 22:08:05 GMT

Last night I needed the RAC, and surprise surprise, I had seen the guy's dog 6 months ago in the emergency clinic (and luckily got him better). And the nurse giving me my 3 weekly injections turned out to have been a client in a 25 mile away practice 6 years ago, when she brought in her dogs to check blood for Brucellosis before exporting semen to New Zealand.

Infuriatingly, it is these things that feel I am at home here, I may not have family roots, but I did make my mark and contributed. And somewhere some British person is living with my spare kidney.

Mariette

RE: "Prepare to leave" letters from Home Office to EU citizens living and working in the UK

mariette asselbergs — Mon, 09 Jan 2017 21:57:58 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

Can I ask why you guys didn't apply for citizenship if you wanted to stay in the UK and have UK rights to vote etc? I worked in Australia for 7 years, got permanent residency and could have applied for citizenship (and in hindsight wish I had). I did come back to UK (my choice) but I accepted I had no right to stay permanently or vote unless I did get citizenship

[/quote]

I was a "permanent resident" in Mozambique for over 12 years, until they decided that "permanent is not permanent" and forced us out. So I know how these things work.

Britain would be different of course. But being a EU national paired up with a Scottish person I had a right to live and work in the UK and we came, both studied like maniacs and changed careers from rural development vet to (almost now) certified small animal emergency vet and from war surgeon to child psychiatris (my partner). I did not contemplate turning into a British nation al because then I would lose the 60% of a Dutch state pension that I now enjoy and not get any UK pension back for it. Then came brexit and the admonitions to apply for "permanent residency" even though we technically still don't need it. I tried to apply in August, but the queue was too long, they would not even accept my application, and told me to try again in December. Now the results are coming out and I don't think I could possibly qualify. I have always worked part time and locumed, and paid my taxes on an average 40 - 50000 income, but you only qualify if you are in full time employment. At 68 and on chemo, i will not work in full time employment obviously, but enjoy my one week on two week off job. Also I never considered the necessity of private health insurance. We were NHS supporters, paid our taxes, would we not have access? Well, apparently not if you are foreign and not in full time employment, including off sick or semi retired. Not that the lovely NHS acts on this yet, but it is hanging as a big threat over our heads, because good luck finding private health insurance while on chemo. Also even if all this would not make me unqualified for permanent residency, there is the question of handing in your passport for 6 months. Our children live abroad, there is no way i will cut myself off of them for 6 months. And since I rather not run the risk of vbeing identified by Home Office as an non qualifying EU foreigner and receiveing a "make preparations to leave letter" I will now probably just do nothing and sit and wait holding my head down.

Mariette