Prospective veterinary student with recent severe hand injury

RE: Prospective veterinary student with recent severe hand injury

Catriona MacIntyre — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 22:34:14 GMT

[quote user="Robert Lowe"]

Would it be possible to use your post as part of a discussion with the respective parties?

[/quote]

Of course. I hope the hand heals well and the student gets good physio and advice! Would love to hear how they get on

ETA - I'm in mixed practice in the Highlands & Islands, so not a huge amount of high spec surgery, but have to deal a wide range of cases (even manage the odd cherry eye op with my wonky wee hands)

RE: Prospective veterinary student with recent severe hand injury

Robert Lowe — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 22:29:14 GMT

[quote user="Catriona MacIntyre"]Most of all.... I wish them all the best, that WHATEVER they end up doing, they do it well and are happy[/quote]

Catriona - thank you so much for that personal insight and for sharing your very relevant experiences. Would it be possible to use your post as part of a discussion with the respective parties?

Rob

RE: Prospective veterinary student with recent severe hand injury

Anthony Todd — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 22:23:34 GMT

Let him/her have a go with some instruments and suture material etc. etc. Clip a cadaver up and do a demo etc. etc.

Or even a foam block, it's amazing how an obvious disability can be compensated for!

It may or may not persuade your friend to persist or try something else in the vet field.

RE: Prospective veterinary student with recent severe hand injury

Catriona MacIntyre — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 22:07:26 GMT

Hi Rob

I think seeing practice, and if you can get in behind the scenes at a vet school and have a chat is a really good idea. The other factor I would want to take into account is... how dominant IS the dominant hand? How well does the other hand manage?

I slashed up my left (non dominant) hand pretty badly on a broken bottle when I was about 7. All the digit function to some extent but it has left the thumb weakened, 4 & 5th digits not fully extendable (sometimes annoying when trying to get a head rope on a lamb). There's a scar across the base of the thumb, and the middle of the palm, though now fairly faded since it was (shh over) 30 years ago.

The last time I ever attempted to trim a cow's foot without either a proper crush, or heavy sedation, I managed to mash up my right (dominant) hand, causing nerve damage and severing the extensor policis brevis. This tendon affects fine motor activity in the thumb, so the full extent of the damage wasn't picked up until during surgery to remove a neuroma and repair the nerve, 2 weeks after the original injury. 3 operations and 6 months of plaster casts and physio later, it was about as good as it's going to get. At one point, the orthopaedic surgeon told me I'd likely never work in practice again.

During that time, I was surprised how much I managed left handed, although I appreciate some people are less ambidextrous than others. I did also manage to hold animals and give subcutaneous and intramuscular injections unaided, even whilst in plaster. I only took three days fully off work, although there were limitations in what I could do in terms of operating whilst in a cast, and large animal obstetrics were out of the question.

I know this was somewhat different from your friend's child's situation, but my point is that we can often adapt far more than we think. Does the student have a few years to work on adapting and finger/thumb strength before vet school? I do find using Gillies needleholders easier than Olsen-Hagers, and do bend a lot of the finer needles because I often grip the needle too hard. My grip in both hands can be a bit unreliable, and I do have to do physiotherapy exercise from time to time to keep them mobile, and keep the fully functioning digits as strong as I can.

Would it help for them to do work placements in non-practice settings? Or basic cadaver surgery? I was lucky to be able to do some pre-vet school experience in an SAC PM lab and to my surprise really enjoyed it. I wouldn't write their chances off yet, but I think you are right - NOW is the time to be exploring how much they can do with their hands, and talk to someone sensible involved with teaching and assessing to think about how the injury may affect them.

Most of all.... I wish them all the best, that WHATEVER they end up doing, they do it well and are happy in their career.

RE: Prospective veterinary student with recent severe hand injury

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 14:21:38 GMT

[quote user="Robert Lowe"]I think this sort of elimination of prospective candidates is fraught with difficulties. Where do you stop - "I'm sorry to inform you that your application for university has been rejected as your forearms are too big for a heifer's rectum". What happens if the injury occurs during the undergraduate course? etc. [/quote]

I think we need to be realistic, just because someone wants to be a vet is not good enough. Can they cope with the course both physically, academically and (dare I say it) mentally? With the current system I would not be supportive of allowing someone to become a MRCVS who could not operate in the full spectrum of vet practice - because that is what it means to me (and most people). Basic surgical competence is a day 1 skill. You have to go lambing sheep, milking cows etc.

There are a number of vet science courses that may suit someone wanting to do a research role in the vet related industries, and doesn't have the same practical components.

Reminds me of something I saw very recently on Facebook:

RE: Prospective veterinary student with recent severe hand injury

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 10:01:30 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]A lot of what we discuss involves options other than first opinion practice.[/quote]Let's be realistic here. For a young person who's dream is to become a vet their image of the profession is very much first opinion general practice. It seems a bit pointless doing 5 years at vet school just to go into research/industry whatever, there are lot easier, less physically demanding ways to achieve that. We're not talking about someone who is committed already. We need a reality check at some point here.

RE: Prospective veterinary student with recent severe hand injury

Iain Richards — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 09:41:43 GMT

As a helper out for the SPVS final year seminar, I can assure your friends child that this need not be a barrier. A lot of what we discuss involves options other than first opinion practice. A huge amount will depend on the extent of the injury, the desire of the person and what they want to do. Perhaps ask a vet at the practice to work with just thumb and forefinger for a day, see what can be achieved. What year are they. If 3rd/4th/5th, get them along to Lancaster!

Django Reinhardt played excellent guitar with only two functioning digits. Cooper can't do that with 5!

RE: Prospective veterinary student with recent severe hand injury

rhmrcvs — Mon, 28 Nov 2016 22:10:44 GMT

A chap in my husbands year at college had a car accident with awful injuries. Was in hospital a long time, eventually started college again having lost 2 years but was unable to complete the course due to the physical impairments.

RE: Prospective veterinary student with recent severe hand injury

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 28 Nov 2016 16:51:01 GMT

[quote user="Robert Lowe"]I think someone telling the younger version of me that I should just give up the dream would only spur me on to do it more.[/quote]I agree and indeed that is exactly what happened to me. It is possible my teachers told me I wasn't smart enough to be a vet as a clever ploy to get me to work harder but I suspect they just weren't very good teachers.

But Niall made some valid points. It is not your job to nurture this person and there is a danger of you taking too much responsibility, it is not your responsibility it is his/hers.

I need talk though. We're taking on someone for work experience as a nurse, even though her grades are terrible and I'm sure she will be hopeless, because reading between the lines she has had a traumatic childhood and is very lacking in self-confidence. The idea is that by helping her it will give her some recognition and feeling of self-worth.

RE: Prospective veterinary student with recent severe hand injury

Robert Lowe — Mon, 28 Nov 2016 15:42:00 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

http://hospitalvet.com/portfolio_page/equipo/

6 pic down

This was my boss 10 years ago. Had an accident doing some chores. (After I left) I believe he still operates... I appreciate it isnt the same sort of injury but it might be worth giving him a call to see how he deals with it..

[/quote]

Thank you

RE: Prospective veterinary student with recent severe hand injury

Robert Lowe — Mon, 28 Nov 2016 15:40:57 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]If you're intending to do this in the context of the hand injury I wouldn't even get into that territory. This person is the best judge of what they may or not be able to do, it should be them who decides based on their knowledge of the profession, which is why they're seeing practice.[/quote]

When I was seeing practice I certainly had no idea on the extent of options available post graduation so I do want to be able to have a list of things that would be available / provide contact details for people with similar issues. In this context I think it would be a good idea to have some appreciation of what may or may not be possible even if it is to discuss with the parents... but I do get where you are coming from.

RE: Prospective veterinary student with recent severe hand injury

Niall Taylor — Mon, 28 Nov 2016 15:30:50 GMT

[quote user="Robert Lowe"]I was hoping to be able to offer some helpful advice on career options involving veterinary work.[/quote]

If you're intending to do this in the context of the hand injury I wouldn't even get into that territory. This person is the best judge of what they may or not be able to do, it should be them who decides based on their knowledge of the profession, which is why they're seeing practice.

There are plenty of options within the veterinary profession itself and technology improves all the time - do bovine rectals need a five-fingered hand, might it be possible to use the other hand, how will endoscopes change in the next ten years?

You should be giving honest answers to questions asked of course but I would say the student needs to decide what s/he's capable of, this person will have a far better idea of what limitations if any they might have.

Niall

RE: Prospective veterinary student with recent severe hand injury

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 28 Nov 2016 15:28:11 GMT

http://hospitalvet.com/portfolio_page/equipo/

6 pic down

RE: Prospective veterinary student with recent severe hand injury

Robert Lowe — Mon, 28 Nov 2016 15:14:17 GMT

Thank you Michael. I think the university point is a very good one and I shall be encouraging this to be followed up.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]if that means not letting someone in because they can't PD a cow or perform surgery then I'm ok with that. I would feel rather uncomfortable letting someone graduate who couldn't fulfil the role on that day.[/quote]

I think this sort of elimination of prospective candidates is fraught with difficulties. Where do you stop - "I'm sorry to inform you that your application for university has been rejected as your forearms are too big for a heifer's rectum". What happens if the injury occurs during the undergraduate course? etc.

RE: Prospective veterinary student with recent severe hand injury

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 28 Nov 2016 15:05:31 GMT

Hence speak to the universities

RE: Prospective veterinary student with recent severe hand injury

Robert Lowe — Mon, 28 Nov 2016 15:03:17 GMT

Chatting to our surgical diplomate, he didn't think that loss of fingers was an impediment to basic surgery but our medical specialist wouldn't want to try and drive an endoscope without full function.

I think someone telling the younger version of me that I should just give up the dream would only spur me on to do it more. I want to present the hard reality of what they would be up against and what the realistic career options are in order to allow some focus on the issue and give them a chance of making the right decision for themselves.

RE: Prospective veterinary student with recent severe hand injury

Richard Carter — Mon, 28 Nov 2016 13:38:00 GMT

we have a colleague who broke his neck playing rugby which left him paralysed but who then went on to become a histopathologist but he had already qualified.

Not the easiest job to do with all your limbs if you want to be in practice. There are all the development and international disease control programmes with WHO/EU/CDC eg rabies, FMD, TB, other state work, food hygiene where not being able to use your fingers would not be a problem but would they be able to pass the spay exam at uni?

RE: Prospective veterinary student with recent severe hand injury

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 28 Nov 2016 13:30:35 GMT

I think a frank discussion with the universities would be in order. I think they all have practical exams now, so would the student be able to carry those tasks out (suturing, IV cannula, remove a horse's shoe, hand ties etc). It is my view that it is only fair that at the point of graduation everyone is equal, and if that means not letting someone in because they can't PD a cow or perform surgery then I'm ok with that. I would feel rather uncomfortable letting someone graduate who couldn't fulfil the role on that day.

Things happen after qualification and that is very different.

RE: Prospective veterinary student with recent severe hand injury

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 28 Nov 2016 13:10:44 GMT

I'm reluctant to answer this as I'm sure I'll get a heap of one stars from the PC brigade. But You can answer your questions yourself Rob. This person shouldn't be left hanging on to a false hope and should be being encouraged to consider other career options.

RE: Prospective veterinary student with recent severe hand injury

Bob Russell — Mon, 28 Nov 2016 13:02:23 GMT

I have struggled enough in surgery because I am left handed! Nobody even thought it mattered (even me!) but it can be a disadvantage. I have adapted to do most things right handed or developed my own ways around problems. Sometimes I operate from one side of the table, sometimes the other!

Not really a disability but I would have appreciated some help at university to ease the situation.

Work experience may be a good way to decide if training as a surgeon is possible or not. Not sure you can qualify as a veterinary surgeon that cannot operate but it is amazing how people cope and how much actual hands on surgery is required to qualify?

Qualifying and working are not the same thing!