Umbilical Hernia?

RE: Umbilical Hernia?

Lindsey Edwards — Fri, 25 Nov 2016 21:07:23 GMT

I locumed in a practice where such stitching was performed - on the assumption the client would go elsewhere/ssek alternative options if they didn't comply. I refused to perform 'cosmetic' (no clipping or long lasting suture knots) but offered a full debridement, repair and 'medical notes' on the microchip record...they waited a week before they represented same pup. Never booked appt if I was on duty again!

Also had irrate phone call from a new owner who purchased a pup with a hernia that I had done first vacc on and advised breeder could be sold if they informed new owner of defect and not for breeding purposes - their own vet had told them it should have been repaired much earlier (before 11weeks?!).

Doctors differ...I stand by my plan of no unnecessary surgery or cosmetic work especially in young pups (this does not mean I would not repair a large hernia or indeed a reducible hernia in a pup with abd colic signs only when hernia was protruding)

RE: Umbilical Hernia?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 24 Nov 2016 10:14:57 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I can't imagine any vet 'just putting a stitch in' an umbilical hernia so would have concerns about that story.[/quote]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Having said that, anyone spending a large amount on a puppy with the prior intention of breeding it also has an eye on financial gain. I would be cautious about trusting them too. [/quote] +1 for both of these. After attempting to get a history from any other vet involved in this, it at all, I would limit my involvement to medical/surgical treatment of the current problem with very informed consent and a clear estimate of maximum costs and let the other parties sort it out for themselves. All sound tarred with the same brush to me.

RE: Umbilical Hernia?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 21:36:23 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]I wouldn't put it past someone that the breeders may carry out repairs themselves in some situations, or have someone non-veterinary that does this sort of thing. [/quote]

That's what I thought...hence why, if I found a surgical scar, I would be asking for a clinical history. If the story is legitimate, there shouldn't be any problem producing one. If not, I'd worry that the breeder is unscrupulous....which would cast doubt on everything they said, including pedigree etc.

Having said that, anyone spending a large amount on a puppy with the prior intention of breeding it also has an eye on financial gain. I would be cautious about trusting them too.

RE: Umbilical Hernia?

James Laidlaw — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 20:28:02 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I can't imagine any vet 'just putting a stitch in' an umbilical hernia so would have concerns about that story.[/quote]

I wouldn't put it past someone that the breeders may carry out repairs themselves in some situations, or have someone non-veterinary that does this sort of thing. Of course there are vets too, but I'd try not to hedge your bets on finding a vet to speak to at the end of the thread!

RE: Umbilical Hernia?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 19:09:18 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"]There was only one passing comment and that was to do with "where the mother has ripped off the cord too strongly and the puppy had had a stitch". There was not a lot that was remarkable and the scar across the umbilicus was rapidly passed over.[/quote]

If a client told me that their new puppy had already had surgery, with a scar present, I would be asking if they had got the puppy's medical history from the vet. If not, it would be standard for us to request it. It would certainly have helped you now.

RE: Umbilical Hernia?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 19:04:02 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"]Ducking the obligation helps no-one and nothing.[/quote]

You misunderstand me. I would give all appropriate advice, including getting hold of previous veterinary clinical records and, if necessary, explaining how they could be in their rights to report to trading standards (or present equivalent) etc. I would even offer to speak to the breeder myself to get accurate information on what has transpired. I wouldn't hesitate to follow this with a call to the RSPCA or Police if necessary.

What I wouldn't do is get half a story from a new owner, who has a vested interest in being right (refund of money paid), and assume the rest.

RE: Umbilical Hernia?

George Cooper — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 18:13:16 GMT

Thanks for your comments - particularly that you've seen young pups that have had surgical correction.

re "getting involved". The failure to get involved is the very reason that some breeders are getting away with substandard breeding where welfare and so on is involved. This owner spent, by choice, her inheritance money quite specifically to buy a dog that was for breeding. This one is not fit for purpose as sold as it should not be used. They have accepted that it would be wrong, and it is my belief that I should support her In whatever claim she may have, particularly since she was told that breeding would be OK.

Tfeat it "as is" - that I will do PLUS robust advice not to breed, which will then get fed back to the breeder and hopefully the VS.

Ducking the obligation helps no-one and nothing.

RE: Umbilical Hernia?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 16:54:13 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I have seen several puppies over the years where a hernia has been treated surgically by the time it comes in for vaccination.[/quote]

Absolutely- but I assume they've had a full surgical procedure? It doesn't look from the photo like this puppy has been clipped...???

RE: Umbilical Hernia?

Bob Russell — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 16:46:28 GMT

I cannot see the maternal trauma being much more than an excuse. The breeds that have maternally traumatised hernias tend to be the same ones that are prone to hernias anyway. Never seen a maternally trauma created hernia in a Labrador for example. The area is weak and that is probably genetic.

I would agree it is better to stick to facts rather than get involved in the mire!

I have seen several puppies over the years where a hernia has been treated surgically by the time it comes in for vaccination.

RE: Umbilical Hernia?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 16:40:19 GMT

I can't imagine any vet 'just putting a stitch in' an umbilical hernia so would have concerns about that story.

Generally speaking, I'd try not to get involved at all. I would simply treat the puppy in front of me and not express much of an opinion about it all. Youre only getting one side of the conversation so difficult to know what's true. Just be factual about the pup's condition. I would also strongly advise against breeding (although I suspect maternal trauma can play a part in their failure to close).

RE: Umbilical Hernia?

Bob Russell — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 15:39:42 GMT

It is a condition of registration with the KC that any surgery that changes conformation is reported and that owners give permission for reporting by a vet to the KC.

If the KC do not keep records they should be removing registration on receipt of notification. This should reduce the value of the puppy for breeding purposes.

RE: Umbilical Hernia?

George Cooper — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 14:33:32 GMT

Thanks guys - that's what I think will happen. The breeder provided written confirmation that the pup was fit for breeding, so recompense should be straightforward.

re the new O 'being aware' after hearing the story......I suspect that there was a degree of gullibility, maybe allied to a wish to believe anything.

she has contacted the KC who apparently do not keep any records of health issues..... Now whether that includes any corrective procedures is another matter.

Seems like this is yet another "no-man's-land" of stuff where it is the poor pet which falls through the cracks. Pointless.

RE: Umbilical Hernia?

Rob Loxley — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 13:55:07 GMT

I have fixed a very large umbilical hernia in a 7 week old puppy for a breeder in the past, where there was real concern for gut loop entrapment. Clipped and prepped as normal so will have been obvious that surgery has been done. Breeder happy to declare this to the new owner, but as a more general point how can we control what the breeder says to the new owner?

[quote user="George Cooper"]the breeder made no mention of it when the sale was made[/quote]

Then how did the new owner know this story about the dam chewing a hole and puppy having a stitch?? I suggest you're not getting the full truth

[quote user="George Cooper"]rapidly passed over[/quote]

Is the problem today that this was not discussed further before, particularly if the owner was at pains from the outset to emphasise her desire to breed the bitch?

Way forward - I'd suggest she speak to the breeder and allow the breeder to offer to make things good to their mutual satisfaction, before 'taking matters further'

RE: Umbilical Hernia?

Bob Russell — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 13:41:50 GMT

Looks like a suture reaction. If you give antibiotics they usually improve. if you don't give antibiotics they usually improve. Occasionally do 'point'!

If this was done by a vet then it should have been reported as a conformational change. Sadly there are plenty of vets out there willing to do all sorts of dodgy stuff for money. Breeders will find one with the ethics of IS if their own vet won't do it!

This claptrap about over enthusiastic mothers creating umbilical hernias is just that, clap trap. If the mother can 'create' a hernia by overenthusiastic licking then the puppy is not right in the first place. This weakness has to be genetic and breeding from affected puppies should be discouraged in the strongest manner.

Again the breeder will be able to find a vet that 'agrees' for a donation to their till!

No wonder I don't have many breeder clients! I also don't do large numbers of hip scores under ACP sedation!

RE: Umbilical Hernia?

George Cooper — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 13:10:02 GMT