Another Nail in the Coffin of Homeopathy

RE: Another Nail in the Coffin of Homeopathy

Bob Russell — Wed, 14 Dec 2016 17:23:52 GMT

Chris day apparently has stated:

"The RCVS, while yet to produce a formal response to the petition, believes homeopathy should be used alongside conventional treatment, rather than as an alternative."(The Guardian)

Does it really? I know one member of council is a homoeopath but this appears to be delusion on a grand scale!

RE: Another Nail in the Coffin of Homeopathy

Danny Chambers — Wed, 14 Dec 2016 15:56:27 GMT

Here is a link to an article fro this week's Vet Times explaining why the RCVS change it's position on homeopathy. It is illogical, does not protect the welfare of animals and does not hold veterinary surgeons to a high enough standard:

https://www.facebook.com/notes/danny-chambers/why-the-rcvs-must-prevent-vets-from-prescribing-homeopathy/10154780779167403

The RCVS are planning to revise their position on homeopathy and alternative medicines in the near future.

For those of you down with the kidz enough to use twitter, please feel free to retweet and/or reply to this tweet so the RCVS are made fully aware of the strength of feeling about this (RCVS will be notified every time this is retweeted).

https://twitter.com/DannyVet/status/808381099781029889

RE: Another Nail in the Coffin of Homeopathy

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 14 Dec 2016 15:55:26 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] She was perfectly happy to accept digitalis, but only because I described it as foxglove extract, so it was natural, which meant it wasn't a drug.[/quote]

RE: Another Nail in the Coffin of Homeopathy

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 14 Dec 2016 12:49:03 GMT

People will convince themselves of anything, if it fits their pre-conceived ideas. Some distrust "drugs" but are fine with "remedies". I once had a client who refused pimobendan on top of frusemide for a dog with congestive heart failure, because sh wouldn't give it 2 drugs. She was perfectly happy to accept digitalis, but only because I described it as foxglove extract, so it was natural, which meant it wasn't a drug.

Wynne

RE: Another Nail in the Coffin of Homeopathy

Mike Dale — Wed, 14 Dec 2016 10:21:22 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

There's a perfectly rational explanation for the numbers of people who believe homeopathy works, and I've written about it here:

https://www.vetsurgeon.org/microsites/private/rational-medicine/p/homeopathy-works.aspx

In short, errors in human thinking / analysis such as regression to the mean, false cause fallacy, assessment errors, confirmation bias and caregiver placebo effect more than explain why millions of people around the world believe in homeopathy.

[/quote]

Good article - makes sense.

RE: Another Nail in the Coffin of Homeopathy

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 13 Dec 2016 18:48:03 GMT

[quote user="Mike Dale"]how have homeopathic practitioners stayed in business for so long and apparently have such loyal client base if homoeopathy is so useless?[/quote]

[quote user="Iain Richards"]Me too Mike, why are folk so ready to believe crap? Especially about their health (or their animal's health).[/quote]

There's a perfectly rational explanation for the numbers of people who believe homeopathy works, and I've written about it here:

https://www.vetsurgeon.org/microsites/private/rational-medicine/p/homeopathy-works.aspx

RE: Another Nail in the Coffin of Homeopathy

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 13 Dec 2016 18:35:47 GMT

[quote user="Mike Dale"]given the fickleness of fee paying clients that show extreme impatience when their pets fail to get better with conventional treatment (e.g. the skin specialist thread) how have homeopathic practitioners stayed in business for so long and apparently have such loyal client base if homoeopathy is so useless? [/quote]Taking a skin case as an example, there are sides to this. The client wants a quick fix and is impatient for the shampoo/diet/EFAs etc to work and wants a quick shot of dex. which of course will work in 90% of cases so why did we waste their time/money faffing about trying to do the job properly.Then the client who doesn't want any of those nasty chemicals/drugs and wants a natural/homeopathic cure, is easily manipulated but sufferers from caregiver placebo syndrome so wills themselves to believe its working when it clearly is not. Hopefully there is a third way - the majority of clients who trust us to do the job properly but understand there is no cure and it may take a little time.

RE: Another Nail in the Coffin of Homeopathy

Iain Richards — Tue, 13 Dec 2016 17:56:06 GMT

Me too Mike, why are folk so ready to believe crap? Especially about their health (or their animal's health).

RE: Another Nail in the Coffin of Homeopathy

Mike Dale — Tue, 13 Dec 2016 17:33:16 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I'm with Simon, in that there are lots of things that, whatever my appetite for knowledge, are beyond my ability to understand (quarks, leptons, mesons and baryons would be on that list). Proof that something works is more important than knowing how it works.[/quote]

I am not comfortable with homoeopathy at all (and I abhor the concept of nosodes) but one thing about it always perplexes me and that is, given the fickleness of fee paying clients that show extreme impatience when their pets fail to get better with conventional treatment (e.g. the skin specialist thread) how have homeopathic practitioners stayed in business for so long and apparently have such loyal client base if homoeopathy is so useless? OK we all know some conditions are going to get better anyway but it is an interesting question.

RE: Another Nail in the Coffin of Homeopathy

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:59:43 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Very true Niall but my point was that Simon said he has no need to to know how things work. I have an insatiable appetite for knowledge and would not be happy until I do understand.[/quote]

I'm with Simon, in that there are lots of things that, whatever my appetite for knowledge, are beyond my ability to understand (quarks, leptons, mesons and baryons would be on that list). Proof that something works is more important than knowing how it works.

Anyway, back to the OP, and another nail in the coffin of homeopathy today, with the news that a new study has concluded that there is insufficient evidence to support the use of homeopathy in farm animals.

https://www.vetsurgeon.org/news/b/veterinary_news/archive/2016/12/13/new-study-concludes-insufficient-evidence-to-support-homeopathy-in-livestock.aspx

RE: Another Nail in the Coffin of Homeopathy

Julian Earl — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 19:02:14 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] I have an insatiable appetite for knowledge and would not be happy until I do understand.[/quote]

I agree completely Martin, my thoughts exactly.

The problem is that until there seems a logical reason behind why it should work, it is still just snake-oil. Understanding is critical in my view, until then eye of newt/leg of frog/dragon scales etc has as much justification. Until it is established it is not far short of deception in my opinion! Sorry...

RE: Another Nail in the Coffin of Homeopathy

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 18:47:35 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]There have been quite a few things over the years which have been demonstrated effective while at the same time a mechanism of action was poorly understood or not understood at all.[/quote]Very true Niall but my point was that Simon said he has no need to to know how things work. I have an insatiable appetite for knowledge and would not be happy until I do understand.

RE: Another Nail in the Coffin of Homeopathy

Niall Taylor — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 18:28:15 GMT

There have been quite a few things over the years which have been demonstrated effective while at the same time a mechanism of action was poorly understood or not understood at all. This would include Snow's groundbreaking epidemiological work on Cholera in the 1850s, Lister's work on asepsis and Carbolic acid in the 1860s, the use of citrus fruit to combat scurvy and the initial work on small pox vaccination using Variola. It was only after these things were shown to work that the mechanisms were discovered.

Homeopaths make the claim that just because we don't know how it works doesn't mean it is ineffective. The above examples and other show it's perfectly possible to prove effectiveness without a known mode of action (which homeopathy has failed to do) but once that effectiveness is shown then a discovery of the mode of action follows fairly quickly, within a few decades at most. Homeopathy has had 200 years, why should it be any different from the rest?

Niall

RE: Another Nail in the Coffin of Homeopathy

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 17:19:44 GMT

[quote user="Simon Neuhoff"]Speaking personally I have no particular need to understand how something works - just proof that it does. [/quote]Surely the two are inseparable. If you don't know how something works then how can you know 'the proof' is the truth? This is why snake oil medicine works. The vast majority of people have little or no scientific or medical knowledge and and haven't got a clue if they're being fed a pack of lies or not. They then have little choice to believe the one with most convincing story - usually the biggest charmer and purveyor of bovine dung who tells them what they want to hear. Then there are those who do have some knowledge but are so desperate and gullible that they will forsake reason and believe that magic and fairies are real.

RE: Another Nail in the Coffin of Homeopathy

Julian Earl — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 16:29:52 GMT

[quote user="Simon Neuhoff"]Speaking personally I have no particular need to understand how something works - just proof that it does. This is where homeopathy consistently fails.[/quote]

That is my point Simon. If pro-homoeopathics want to be accepted in a scientific world they have to accept scientific statistical analysis of a large-scale trial to establish "acceptable evidence.

RE: Another Nail in the Coffin of Homeopathy

Simon Neuhoff — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 09:25:59 GMT

Speaking personally I have no particular need to understand how something works - just proof that it does. This is where homeopathy consistently fails.

RE: Another Nail in the Coffin of Homeopathy

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 28 Nov 2016 09:26:29 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]I understand that Niall, but I do not understand why those who are pro-homoeopathy resist a wide-scale blinded trial when trying to "prove their methodology in a scientific world. [/quote]Homeopathy is more a quasi-religious movement than anything to do with science. Given that countless millions have died in the name of religion based on nothing more than blind faith, virtually since humans descended from the trees, nothing is surprising. Logic and intelligence seemingly have nothing to do with it. If you can think for yourself you never will understand. Just accept that there a lot of gullible, desperate people out there who can be exploited by those seeking power or profit.

RE: Another Nail in the Coffin of Homeopathy

Julian Earl — Sat, 26 Nov 2016 17:13:45 GMT

I understand that Niall, but I do not understand why those who are pro-homoeopathy resist a wide-scale blinded trial when trying to "prove their methodology in a scientific world. The way it works (!!) is surely irrelevant to how results are analysed? It should be easy to design a trial for a non-threatening condition in which animals do not suffer , eg false pregnancy just to compare the outcomes with nothing versus hormonal therapy. Such a comparison would, I believe be acceptable to both sides of the argument if the trial was large enough to be statistically relevant.

RE: Another Nail in the Coffin of Homeopathy

Niall Taylor — Sat, 26 Nov 2016 11:34:41 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]Until some proper research proves it as quackery, I think it will have its proponents.[/quote]

There's plenty of evidence that homeopathy is ineffective and the research homeopaths present to suggest otherwise is consistently of low quality. This has been the case for decades.

Unfortunately evidence, no matter how robust, has very little to do with the debate around homeopathy, it is more akin to a belief system than a system of medicine.

Niall

RE: Another Nail in the Coffin of Homeopathy

Julian Earl — Sat, 26 Nov 2016 09:33:52 GMT

Alas I predict that tis is a Mark Twain subject!. The death of homoeopathy has been greatly exaggerated!We'll still be arguing about it in 20 years, I would bet. Until some proper research proves it as quackery, I think it will have its proponents.