Persistently late staff

RE: Persistently late staff

patrick murphy — Thu, 24 Nov 2016 15:09:23 GMT

as one who has advertised for 2 months for a RVN without any replies I would have to consider the labour market prevailing in my area for nurses.

RE: Persistently late staff

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 14:12:51 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]

Excellent approach , all out in the open and support from the team. If I were wearing a hat Martin I would take it off to you and your team for your positivity and kindness.

[/quote]I'll take that compliment any day Clare. I forgot to add that my nurses (bar the one who sent her boyfriend in to beat me up) have always said that I'm like a father figure to them and I tell them they are like daughters to me and nobody messes with daddy's girls. Hopefully they won't take as much advantage of me as my real daughters do!

RE: Persistently late staff

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 13:30:17 GMT

Excellent approach , all out in the open and support from the team. If I were wearing a hat Martin I would take it off to you and your team for your positivity and kindness.

RE: Persistently late staff

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 10:19:44 GMT

Progress report: we had a discussion with the nurses, there is no resentment regarding her persistent lateness, they are very supportive of each other. Indeed we are like a happy family I sometimes think she is happier here than at home hence there's never any rush to leave after her shift. She has personal problems and is finding it difficult to sleep and is very angry with herself for being late and has promised to try and improve. Sadly 3 minutes late again this morning but at least we're improving.

RE: Persistently late staff

J G Wray — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 10:13:31 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]It is odd that nobody, including Mr Wray who was so vociferous on the issue, has pointed out that the same can occur here.[/quote]

Aye, aye, what's all this then?

[quote user="Utlendigur"]It is very easy to find Mr Atkinson's practice details, and the names of the nurses who work for him. If that nurse was subsequently looking for a new job.....[/quote]

Then you can point out to Dr Atkinson that he discussed it here and might need to rebut this as a contributory factor in the nurse's dismissal, at a Tribunal. Would you like that? I'd rather Dr A found a way to happiness and harmony with the nurse.

..and since you brought it up does anyone know what happened to the vet who was so disgruntled about their practice's holiday policy?

[quote user="Utlendigur"]One rule for the employers and a different one for the staff?[/quote]

Oh ho there's a can of worms, but in short, you bet. This should be good.

RE: Persistently late staff

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 11:30:53 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"] It is very easy to find Mr Atkinson's practice details, and the names of the nurses who work for him. If that nurse was subsequently looking for a new job....One rule for the employers and a different one for the staff?[/quote]Why are you going to headhunt her?! I don't think that in these days of social media overload you would have to resort to such subterfuge, just have a look on Facebook or whatever.

RE: Persistently late staff

Utlendigur — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 09:57:54 GMT

A few weeks ago there was a post about annual leave over the summer

https://www.vetsurgeon.org/uk/general/f/6/t/24985.aspx?pi1581=1

The OP was criticised for discussing the employer's annual leave arrangements and the dispute in a public forum on the basis that the practice and those managing it could be identified from her details, but would not be able to defend themselves. It is odd that nobody, including Mr Wray who was so vociferous on the issue, has pointed out that the same can occur here. It is very easy to find Mr Atkinson's practice details, and the names of the nurses who work for him. If that nurse was subsequently looking for a new job....One rule for the employers and a different one for the staff?

RE: Persistently late staff

David Mills — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 02:17:46 GMT

"Punctuality is the virtue of the bored." - Evelyn Waugh

"I am always late on principle, my principle being that punctuality is the thief of time." - Oscar Wilde

RE: Persistently late staff

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 21 Nov 2016 15:50:56 GMT

I can only speak from the perspective of my business-but 15mins late on a Monday morning would be a pain in the a***. The phones, appointments and walk-ins are always very busy. We need everyone to be there! (Our first staff arrive at 8am everyday, so they are ready for the clients, with further shifts starting at 8.30 and 11.30.) You have a lot more patience than me Martin.

As for the ugly and the good....I see that as normal employee behaviour. I guess I've got good staff, but I knew that already!

RE: Persistently late staff

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 21 Nov 2016 15:05:22 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

Bad: was 15 minutes late but texted at 8.15 to say sorry, she was stuck in traffic.

Ugly: told me off for selling 2 cases of Gastro diet from the wrong shelf and re-ordering when there was some already ordered for that particular client.

Good: drove first day work experience student to the shops to get some lunch because it was pissing down even though her shift finished 25 minutes earlier.

[/quote]

The Bad isn't terrible, the problem is the regularity. The Ugly isn't ugly at all imo - unless I'm misunderstanding - your employee has a business-like mentality, she's looking after your house, not just after herself like very many do. The Good, try to find someone else doing that for a business that it is not even hers. She doesn't need to be fired, you need to give her a promotion Maybe that way, she will have to be on time to lead by example.

Sorry, I'll shut up now, I don't even own a business

RE: Persistently late staff

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 21 Nov 2016 14:01:40 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="Aine Seavers"]Have you an example of a put in place moment?[/quote]

Surely not as Martin never makes mistakes?

[/quote]

Well I don't make many but then like Mary Poppins I'm only 'practically perfect'.

Good examples of the Good, Bad and Ugly today.

Bad: was 15 minutes late but texted at 8.15 to say sorry, she was stuck in traffic.

Ugly: told me off for selling 2 cases of Gastro diet from the wrong shelf and re-ordering when there was some already ordered for that particular client.

Good: drove first day work experience student to the shops to get some lunch because it was pissing down even though her shift finished 25 minutes earlier.

RE: Persistently late staff

J G Wray — Sun, 20 Nov 2016 08:57:43 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

[quote user="J G Wray"]

What's the Spanish for mañana?

[/quote]

A terrible stereotype, similar to 'British punctuality' it seems. ;-)

[/quote][quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

[quote user="J G Wray"]

What's the Spanish for mañana?

[/quote]

A terrible stereotype, similar to 'British punctuality' it seems. ;-)

[/quote]

I grew up in Devon and as they say there:

"We don' ave anything like mañana, leastways nothin' with the same sense of urgency..."

RE: Persistently late staff

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 20 Nov 2016 08:22:33 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

What's the Spanish for mañana?

[/quote]

A terrible stereotype, similar to 'British punctuality' it seems. ;-)

RE: Persistently late staff

J G Wray — Sun, 20 Nov 2016 07:21:29 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

You'll find that they don't look at themselves as 'prima donna' and they don't think their time matter any more than yours. In my experience, these people find their struggle with time a nuance themselves, like a disease, and it is often the cause of strong family arguments.

[/quote]

What's the Spanish for mañana?

RE: Persistently late staff

Rob Loxley — Sat, 19 Nov 2016 19:04:03 GMT

[quote user="Aine Seavers"]Have you an example of a put in place moment?[/quote]

Surely not as Martin never makes mistakes?

RE: Persistently late staff

grumpyoldman — Sat, 19 Nov 2016 18:56:56 GMT

Add up the time lost until it accumulates into a day ,then knock a days pay off a months salary as unpaid leave ,but tell her that is what your going to do until and unless it stops.You should also point out the difficulties its creating for those having to multitask in her absence. If she otherwise a good employee maybe worth prying into the domestic home situation to find out what exactly is causing the problem.

RE: Persistently late staff

Robin Grimmer — Sat, 19 Nov 2016 17:19:26 GMT

I'm surprised people are being so lenient/making allowances for persistent tardiness. It's not tolerated at school, university, so in a job it's even more important! Shape up or ship out!!

RE: Persistently late staff

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Sat, 19 Nov 2016 14:14:33 GMT

I think we will have to agree to differ. I've enjoyed the discussion though, very thought provoking and probably no help to Martin whatsoever!

RE: Persistently late staff

Francisco Gomez — Sat, 19 Nov 2016 13:16:24 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]

Francisco it is the assumption that it is a behaviour that cannot be changed that I disagree with here [/quote]

It might be that it can't be changed. Not joking here.

Anecdote alert! My best friend... when we were young, he used to tell me to be at his home about certain time at night to go clubbing and the likes... I used to eat dinner, shower, get dressed, etc. and still allow 10 min to get to his house so we could leave on time. When I got there, he had nothing done, started to say 'Sorry, I'm late, let me jump in the shower and I'll be ready in 10...' then he realised that dinner was on the table ready... long history short... It happened so many times that I stopped making plans at his house. Since then, 'if you wanna go out, come home whenever, if I'm in, you can come with me..' Guess what? Still my best friend

[quote]

I don't want to wait around until some prima donna condescends to see me because they think my time doesn't matter as much as theirs.

[/quote]

[quote]

Ask the nurses how they feel about surgeries running late.

[/quote]

My other half is a vet nurse... I know all the stories. Like I said, I'm not an expert on this, but I think some behaviours aren't amenable to be changed in some people, as petty and easy as these changes might sound at first. Many people are just not suited to certain jobs, like being a train driver or your son's carer... or a being vet nurse in your practice

RE: Persistently late staff

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Sat, 19 Nov 2016 10:51:37 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Martin - you feel this staff member would be happy to keep working late without pay. Has this been tested? [/quote]Yes, frequently. She even refused a pay rise (she got it anyway), saying she doesn't do the job for money; she enjoys the job, working with me and with her colleagues. I would doubt there is ever a day when she leaves on time from her early shift (they do 8.30 am - 1.30 pm or 10.30 am - 7.30 pm) if nothing else she'd be hanging around chatting and as often as not lending a hand to the late shift. This is usually reciprocated.

[/quote] She sounds a gem , just put her on lates all the time. If she gets fed up she can change and be on time or go back to lates permanently. Good luck

RE: Persistently late staff

Martin Atkinson — Sat, 19 Nov 2016 10:31:19 GMT

RE: Persistently late staff

Tedders — Sat, 19 Nov 2016 10:27:17 GMT

I find lateness extremely aggravating (and hard to understand as I am pathologically early) and in fact consider people who are persistently late to be selfish and hugely inconsiderate. Worse are the ones who think the lateness is some cute quirky personality trait that other people find amusing (they don't!). But maybe in my desire to be on time I simply don't understand what it is that makes people late and hearing about how good she is at her job, how she takes it on the chin without complaint when she is fined and how she works late regularly without expecting any payment, I would have to agree with Mariette that the good vastly outweighs the bad and I would be thankful at having such an asset in my practice and try and accommodate the lateness as it seems it is not going to change.

RE: Persistently late staff

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Sat, 19 Nov 2016 09:38:24 GMT

Francisco it is the assumption that it is a behaviour that cannot be changed that I disagree with here hence my comparison with the need to get dressed or conform to other behaviours that make society work more efficiently. I find this a very interesting topic , I really enjoy all the variations in personality and freedom to be oneself but it is when that freedom impacts negatively on others that I draw the line. I do not want my train driver, my doctor or my sons carers to choose how late they want to be because " hey that's just the way they are" . I value my time and don't want to sit around waiting. I am more productive getting on with my life than sitting around.

The veterinary practice day does not lend itself to working whenever you feel like it and as a client I want to go for an appointment and be seen on time unless there is an emergency when delay is completely understandable. I've got a busy life and a lot to pack in in a day. I don't want to wait around until some prima donna condescends to see me because they think my time doesn't matter as much as theirs.

Ask the nurses how they feel about surgeries running late. They loathe it , the clients get grumpy with them and they still have to clear up at the end of the session while the vet swans off home.

RE: Persistently late staff

Francisco Gomez — Sat, 19 Nov 2016 08:28:28 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]Martin has explained that the individual, other than disruptive, is a valuable member of staff.[/quote]

If their behaviour wasn't disruptive, this thread wouldn't exist.

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]To be honest, I'd prefer to work with 10 poor time-keepers that do their jobs other than 10 that are punctual and lazy[/quote]

Lol. What a lovely choice! What about 10 good time keepers who are good at their jobs?

Just curious...quick poll. I employ 3 vets and approximately 20 other staff. All are punctual, every day. What is the ratio of poor time keepers in practices where it is accepted?

[/quote]

Gillian, I'm not pretending to know more than you about this. I don't own a practice and my initial reaction to the thread was the same as yours.

I work in a practice with 30+ staff but have some limited knowledge about its finances. It turns out that the people who makes the most income in the practice are the worst at time keeping!

I'm only giving my opinion about something that I see as important, but perhaps not the most important. I'm sorry, I can't equate this to 'other accepted social rules like being dressed while on the street'. Poor time keeping is a very common thing, not just in working people, but also amongst clientele.

RE: Persistently late staff

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 19 Nov 2016 08:22:41 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]Martin has explained that the individual, other than disruptive, is a valuable member of staff.[/quote]

If their behaviour wasn't disruptive, this thread wouldn't exist.

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]To be honest, I'd prefer to work with 10 poor time-keepers that do their jobs other than 10 that are punctual and lazy[/quote]

Lol. What a lovely choice! What about 10 good time keepers who are good at their jobs?

Just curious...quick poll. I employ 3 vets and approximately 20 other staff. All are punctual, every day. What is the ratio of poor time keepers in practices where it is accepted?

As far as accepting that all employees have different strengths and weaknesses- absolutely. That is a massive factor in personnel management, and therefore staff retainment. But I guess if you're prepared to see poor time management as a personality trait, rather than a choice, then you'll have a different reaction to it.

Martin - you feel this staff member would be happy to keep working late without pay. Has this been tested?