American Presidential Election.

RE: American Presidential Election.

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 22:48:41 GMT

You're absolutely right Robin-sorry!

(And welcome to the forums! )

RE: American Presidential Election.

robin scott — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 19:17:43 GMT

MP's or MSP's there is a difference !!!

RE: American Presidential Election.

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 18:49:53 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] 15 members of the Scottish Parliament even had the temerity to claim Remembrance wreaths as expenses![/quote]

Did you buy a remembrance wreath?

Do you think those MPs would have bought those wreaths had they not been an MP?

IMHO, those wreaths are absolutely a legitimate expense of being an MP.

RE: American Presidential Election.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 18:40:51 GMT

15 members of the Scottish Parliament even had the temerity to claim Remembrance wreaths as expenses!

Wynne

RE: American Presidential Election.

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 18:19:00 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="ruths"]and then you've said that you prefer your MPs to be rich...... [/quote]

Yes I did, and still do (although I did later concede your point that they should ideally have experience of being poor too).

[/quote]

Here's a thought, we should pay our politicians a decent salary so that whether they were rich or poor before they became MPs they can live a comfortable life on their salary.

[/quote]

Is it difficult to live on a salary of £74,962? I'm afraid I don't have any experience of this.

[/quote]

I wasn't saying that we don't pay them a decent salary now, and I'd be very very happy if my salary was increased to £74,962! but part of the reason we ended up with the expenses debacle a few years ago was that salaries for MPs hadn't increased for some time and as a sort of compensation for that they were encouraged to claim as much as they could on expenses, there were of course some MPs who took advantage of the system and they quite rightly got into trouble.

RE: American Presidential Election.

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 17:37:22 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="ruths"]and then you've said that you prefer your MPs to be rich...... [/quote]

Yes I did, and still do (although I did later concede your point that they should ideally have experience of being poor too).

[/quote]

Here's a thought, we should pay our politicians a decent salary so that whether they were rich or poor before they became MPs they can live a comfortable life on their salary.

[/quote]

Is it difficult to live on a salary of £74,962? I'm afraid I don't have any experience of this.

RE: American Presidential Election.

Dagmar Steele — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 16:33:25 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Look, we've agreed (I think) that financial gain is one of many possible factors in crime. I also believe that financial gain can also affect decisions adversely (ie not necessarily to the extent that you would call them criminal).

I am not sure why I am being so controversial in saying I prefer my MPs to be free of that negative influence.

[/quote]

I'm not convinced that being rich frees you of the negative influence of wanting financial gain. Otherwise people like Mr. Trump could give away a good proportion of their wealth without even noticing it. But they don't. Guess why. On the contrary, many of them have been found guilty of withholding taxes for example. There's no need for them to do so, they're rich already, but obviously they want to gain even more.

RE: American Presidential Election.

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 16:25:53 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="ruths"]and then you've said that you prefer your MPs to be rich...... [/quote]

Yes I did, and still do (although I did later concede your point that they should ideally have experience of being poor too).

[/quote]

Here's a thought, we should pay our politicians a decent salary so that whether they were rich or poor before they became MPs they can live a comfortable life on their salary.

RE: American Presidential Election.

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 16:12:02 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]and then you've said that you prefer your MPs to be rich...... [/quote]

Yes I did, and still do (although I did later concede your point that they should ideally have experience of being poor too).

I am not sure why I am being so controversial in saying I prefer my MPs to be free of that negative influence.

RE: American Presidential Election.

ruths — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 15:58:13 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Ruths I was trying to explain that I thought what Arlo meant was that someone who's poor is guaranteed to be greedy, not necessarily dishonest.

I can't illustrate what I mean better than by referring to one of the famous crimes of the 60s...........the Great Train Robbery - Ronnie Biggs et al.

The judge, Sir Edmund Davies, later Lord Edmund Davies sentenced them to exemplary sentences.

The criminal had been born poor, and being both greedy and dishonest had turned to crime.

Lord Edmund Davies had also been born poor, a miner's son. He had also been greedy, but not dishonest, so his greed drove him to better himself by gaining a scholarship to university.

That's the difference. If Lord Edmund Davies hadn't been greedy, he would probably have been out with his school friends, enjoying himself, not striving for advancement (in a legal manner)

There are millions upon millions of poor and honest people around....................many of them in minimum wage dead end jobs, but still robbed to pay for benefits for the dishonest who prefer to lie than work.

Wynne

[/quote]

Ypubdo know that a significant part of the welfare busget goes to those in-work poor, don't you.

RE: American Presidential Election.

ruths — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 15:54:02 GMT

Do you have any population statistics, wynne?

RE: American Presidential Election.

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 15:46:17 GMT

Ruths I was trying to explain that I thought what Arlo meant was that someone who's poor is guaranteed to be greedy, not necessarily dishonest.

I can't illustrate what I mean better than by referring to one of the famous crimes of the 60s...........the Great Train Robbery - Ronnie Biggs et al.

The judge, Sir Edmund Davies, later Lord Edmund Davies sentenced them to exemplary sentences.

The criminal had been born poor, and being both greedy and dishonest had turned to crime.

Lord Edmund Davies had also been born poor, a miner's son. He had also been greedy, but not dishonest, so his greed drove him to better himself by gaining a scholarship to university.

That's the difference. If Lord Edmund Davies hadn't been greedy, he would probably have been out with his school friends, enjoying himself, not striving for advancement (in a legal manner)

Wynne

RE: American Presidential Election.

Kate Richardson — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 15:41:15 GMT

I'm concerned that if you have that much money you wouldn't miss a few grand to pay for someone's support.....

RE: American Presidential Election.

ruths — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 15:39:24 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="ruths"]Arlo!

The comment you've pulled out follows on from this[/quote]

And?!

None of the stuff that I didn't quote (but did nevertheless reference), is contrary to anything I've said already. I've never argued that most poor people are involved in crime, nor that there is a direct causal relationship (though I bet at the extreme end there is, I mean if you can't afford to buy food, there's it's got to be more likely you'd try and nick some, or the money to pay for it).

[/quote]

and then you've said that you prefer your MPs to be rich......

i may have missed the point, but what this study seems to say is that it's not just poverty that is related to crime, there's a whole heap of other things.

RE: American Presidential Election.

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 15:29:47 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]Arlo!

The comment you've pulled out follows on from this[/quote]

And?!

None of the stuff that I didn't quote (but did nevertheless reference), is contrary to anything I've said already. I've never argued that most poor people are involved in crime, nor that there is a direct causal relationship (though I bet at the extreme end there is, I mean if you can't afford to buy food, it's got to be more likely you'd try and nick some, or the money to pay for it).

RE: American Presidential Election.

ruths — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 14:20:30 GMT

I found this (uncorroborated) statistic

'that in 2011, while 0.13 per cent of the general population was in jail, a shocking 0.61 per cent of House of Commons members were in prison'

from this website of a C4 programme https://www.channel4.com/news/out-of-order-politicians-who-ended-up-behind-bars

I think the situation is much more nuanced than your nuances, Arlo -))

RE: American Presidential Election.

ruths — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 14:15:31 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Here we go, one of the first conclusions of a Joseph Rowntree Foundation report

"We can nevertheless state that poverty generates conditions that make delinquent and criminal ‘solutions’ more likely than would otherwise be the case."

Page 32:

http://eprints.lancs.ac.uk/71188/1/JRF_Final_Poverty_and_Crime_Review_May_2014.pdf

[/quote]

Arlo!

The comment you've pulled out follows on from this

We must tread warily when speaking about crime and poverty in the same breath-most people who are poor have no involvement in crime – despite the libel over millennia that they are. Second, there isn’t necessarily a direct causal relationship between crime and poverty. Rather, intervening conditions, experiences and events may cement this relationship in some circumstances while not in others.

As well as poverty,other events and experiences need to occur too, which although strongly associated with poverty, are not exclusive to it.

We can nevertheless state that poverty generates conditions that make delinquent and criminal ‘solutions’ more likely than would otherwise be the case.

Finally, being a victim of property and violent crime is also more likely if the person is poor.

RE: American Presidential Election.

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:28:13 GMT

Here we go, one of the first conclusions of a Joseph Rowntree Foundation report

"We can nevertheless state that poverty generates conditions that make delinquent and criminal ‘solutions’ more likely than would otherwise be the case."

Page 32:

http://eprints.lancs.ac.uk/71188/1/JRF_Final_Poverty_and_Crime_Review_May_2014.pdf

RE: American Presidential Election.

ruths — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:05:15 GMT

I forgot tondo a smiley -)

RE: American Presidential Election.

ruths — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:04:42 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="ruths"]So, would you change your own stance on integrity and honesty based on your bank balance, Arlo? [/quote]

Yes.

I've already said that if I found myself homeless and penniless tomorrow, I might well turn to crime in order to support my family. The sort of crime I might turn to would be affected by my level of desperation, and the upbringing I've had. I wouldn't start coshing little old ladies over the head, but I might be tempted to leave the shop with a few extra items in the bag. I'd probably get caught, though.

[/quote]

I think there's an old joke about a rich man asking woman if he would sleep with her for a million poinds. She says she would. And then he asks if she would for a fiver. She says 'what sort of woman dontou think I am?' He replies ' we've established that, now we are haggling over the price'

Just becuase your relationship with honesty and integrity is on a sliding scale, you can't make the assumption that everyone else is the same.

I think we can name plenty of rich, dishonest people.

RE: American Presidential Election.

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 11:34:34 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]So, would you change your own stance on integrity and honesty based on your bank balance, Arlo? [/quote]

Yes.

RE: American Presidential Election.

Bob Russell — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 11:32:03 GMT

But Trump pays little or no tax so he must be poor, not rich!

"Annual income two billion dollars, annual expenditure one billion five hundred thousand, result happiness. Annual income two billion dollars, annual expenditure two billion five hundred thousand, result misery."

RE: American Presidential Election.

ruths — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 11:26:42 GMT

So, would you change your own stance on integrity and honesty based on your bank balance, Arlo?

RE: American Presidential Election.

ruths — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 11:25:02 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="ruths"]I'm a bit gob smacked that the inference from arlo and wynne is that if you are poor then you are more likely to be greedy and dishonest.[/quote]

No, Ruths, I did not at any time say or even suggest that being poor makes you more likely to be greedy. I don't believe that for a second, and nor have I ever seen any evidence of that being the case. Actually, I suspect the reverse is true, and there are more greedy rich people than poor ones!

Do I think that being poor makes one more likely to be dishonest? Well, I think it is true to say that if you need for something, you might be more likely to compromise your honest values to get it. If I found myself broke tomorrow, I might turn to crime in order to support my family. I doubt I would be very good at it, but I'd probably give it a go!

But as I said before, my whole point was far more nuanced.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]What I really mean is that I prefer decision-making (about things that aren't to do with money) not to be clouded by financial need or gain on the part of the decision-maker.

Not necessarily to stop them embezzling (though you would think a person who is already rich through fair means is perhaps less likely to start embezzling), but because I have greater confidence in decisions which I think are untainted by money.[/quote]

I'll give you an example. Day to day, I am independently financially secure and have been for quite a long time. That means that when I edit and moderate this site, the decisions I make are almost completely divorced from financial considerations. I publish news stories because I think they are interesting, not to butter up a potential advertiser. I moderate posts based on my own feeling about courtesy and good manners, and not because I'm frightened of losing revenue from an important advertiser (for example if someone posts something negative about product x).

[/quote]

It was wynne who suggested that poor people are greedier than the rich.

i hear that you think it's more nuanced....

But it really boils down to honesty, doesn't it?

Could your position be summarised by the question 'faced with temptation, are poor people more likely to be honest?'

or maybe 'faced with temptation, are desperate people more likely to be honest?'

I still find it odd that you are considering equating acquisition with morality.

I think lots of people are dishonest - rich people, poor people, black people, white people, young people , old people. I don't think dishonesty resides in any one type of person... and I think you are on a slippery slope if you hold that opinion without any real concrete evidence.

RE: American Presidential Election.

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 15 Nov 2016 11:05:07 GMT

[quote user="ruths"]I'm a bit gob smacked that the inference from arlo and wynne is that if you are poor then you are more likely to be greedy and dishonest.[/quote]

But as I said before, my whole point was far more nuanced.