The Outsider's view - November'16 - Irony

RE: The Outsider's view - November'16 - Irony

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 04 Nov 2016 09:08:29 GMT

We should never forget the First World War. Almost everything bad that occurred in 20th century Europe can be traced to the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand. I'm not claiming he was a saint. I know attitudes to big game shooting were different then, but even so, I'm appalled by his blood-thirstiness. However, I do admire the fact that he insisted on marrying the woman he loved, even though she wasn't considered suitable by his uncle. However, his assassination not only led to a war in which millions died, it could also be argued that without that war, the terrible Russian revolution might not have happened, with the many many millions murdered by Lenin and Stalin. The poor Russian people were then subjected to 70 years of brutal oppression under the Communists This terrible, and totally unnecessary war resulted in the deposition of Kaiser Wilhelm, and a resulting vacuum at the top in Germany............a vacuum which the evil National Socialists exploited, and which resulted in the Second World War

RE: The Outsider's view - November'16 - Irony

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 03 Nov 2016 18:43:54 GMT

First of all, thank you for your encouragement and honest answers.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

Maybe if poppies grew in Spain you may wear one to remember those who lost their lives on both sides in the Civil War

[/quote]

You see, they do grow in Spain. But if someone was to wear one there, most people wouldn't think of its significance other than that of Opium and now I learn, fragility, passion, etc. etc. etc.... and a few would think it as a mark of respect for British soldiers fallen in wars, but not any soldiers AFAIK.

http://blog.interflora.es/el-significado-de-la-amapola/

http://significadodelasflores.com/significado-de-la-flores-rojas/

RE: The Outsider's view - November'16 - Irony

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 03 Nov 2016 17:42:19 GMT

The poppy became a symbol of remembrance after the First World War both because it grew plentifully in Flanders where so much of the appalling slaughter took place, and because the colour reminded people of spilt blood.

Far from glorifying war, I think far more emphasis should be placed on a remembrance of the past, so as to prevent politicians repeating the same mistakes. If after 9/11, Bush and Blair had remembered their history, they might not have repeated the mistake Emperor Franz Joseph made in 1914, when he over-reacted to the action of a few evil terrorists.

As a farmer, my father was engaged in work of national importance, so was exempt from conscription, but I will wear a poppy, and on both November 11th and Remembrance Sunday will pause to reflect on the appalling, and unnecessary loss of life of both people and animals, mainly poor poor horses who were subjected to unimaginable cruelty in the First World War, but also dogs and pigeons.

My father was born in 1912, so one of his earliest memories was of the end of the First World War. He always said that 2 things stood out in his memory. The 1st was hearing church bells, because ringing them was forbidden during the war...............if they were rung it would mean an invasion had taken place. His other memory was seeing my grandfather holding a magnificent silver cup in his hands and crying. Until then, my father hadn't realised that adults could cry. My grandfather was a champion ploughman, and in the autumn of 1913, he'd won a ploughing match. Part of his prize was a silver challenge cup. He should have returned it the following year, but by then the war had started, and so the match was cancelled, so he still had possession of the cup in 1918. However, the 2 horses who had helped him win the cup had been taken by the army, and there was nothing he could do about it. My grandfather really really loved his horses, so he couldn't celebrate the end of the war because he'd lost them.

Wynne

RE: The Outsider's view - November'16 - Irony

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 03 Nov 2016 17:25:21 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]So If I chose to buy a red poppy this year, would you not feel that I'm being disrespectful wearing it?[/quote]Why on earth would anyone think you were being disrespectful especially as you have a British family? Indeed I would respect you more for it. It is no more or less than I might be considered disrespectful for choosing not to wear one. The significance of the poppy is the connection to the fields of Flanders where so many of many different nations, from both sides of the conflict, religions and ethnic backgrounds died. In a wider view this could represent the loss of lives in conflict anywhere in the world. Maybe if poppies grew in Spain you may wear one to remember those who lost their lives on both sides in the Civil War

RE: The Outsider's view - November'16 - Irony

Richard Carter — Thu, 03 Nov 2016 17:18:09 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]If I chose to buy a red poppy this year, would you not feel that I'm being disrespectful wearing it?[/quote] why? It symbolises a respect for those who died - forget the war or context as political. I feel more uncomfortable with the growing feeling discussed above where if you are NOT wearing one, that you are heading for the unspeakable corner of the room to be shunned by all 'correct' thinking people who seem to be getting more 'correct' and fanatical about remembrance day every passing year - similarly anniversaries of every D-Day every year??

RE: The Outsider's view - November'16 - Irony

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 03 Nov 2016 16:37:26 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Both grandfathers had a very rough time during their periods in France and Belgium but both came home (otherwise I would not be here!).[/quote]One of mine never came back the other died of complications due his injuries some time later.

[/quote]

So you both had families that suffered from these wars, and therefore there is a significance for you two. But I have no links whatsoever with the British legion (except of course by my other half's family). So If I chose to buy a red poppy this year, would you not feel that I'm being disrespectful wearing it?

RE: The Outsider's view - November'16 - Irony

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 03 Nov 2016 16:28:06 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]If players wish to wear poppies then FIFA should not be interfering unless there is a complaint from any party involved.[/quote]And why then would you heed a complaint from another party? FIFA may be an ass but it is only trying to preempt the possibility of a more general complaint albeit one that would be politically motivated.

RE: The Outsider's view - November'16 - Irony

Bob Russell — Thu, 03 Nov 2016 15:19:47 GMT

I rarely wear a poppy but buy one every year. I forget/change clothes so often so it ends up on my desk.

The 2 minute silence often passes me by except perhaps on Remembrance Sunday. It is a time for me to remember relatives now gone but with a degree of relief that everyone survived WW1 and were too old/young for WW2!

Both grandfathers had a very rough time during their periods in France and Belgium but both came home (otherwise I would not be here!).

The sheer scale of losses in the two wars will fade into history and more recent casualties are fewer in number but equally in need of help from specialist charities.

Poppy day appeals will always have a place and it is good to respect those that suffered in conflict without using it as a political football.

If players wish to wear poppies then FIFA should not be interfering unless there is a complaint from any party involved.

RE: The Outsider's view - November'16 - Irony

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 03 Nov 2016 14:28:16 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]I dont think so. But knowing our politicians I cant imaging them not to protest and raising the issue of them(us) having other symbols to wear that represent other things, more in-line with Spanish History. [/quote]That really is picking a fight when there is nothing to fight about.

But going back to the broader issue of the poppy. To certain ethnic groups the poppy is a symbol of the glorification of the military at the hands of which they have suffered either historically during colonial years or currently especially in the middle east. Whether you agree with their sentiments or not, being sensitive to other's feelings is sometimes politically astute.

Personally I agree with Francisco to an extent that I feel sometimes that there is an unspoken obligation to wear a poppy and stand for 2 minute's silence and that one may be thought of as a pariah for not conforming. I rarely wear a poppy largely because I usually forget but I don't need to make a symbolic gesture one a year to show my empathy for those who laid down their lives to save us from tyranny any more than I need to visit my parents grave. I appreciate it every second of every day and I object that someone should think I'm any less a person because I don't. This wouldn't however stop me from making a contribution to charities devoted to rehabilitating injured servicemen or supporting the families of those who lost a member in conflict which should be the real purpose.

RE: The Outsider's view - November'16 - Irony

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 03 Nov 2016 13:16:53 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Does the red poppy have particular meaning to the Spanish people?

[/quote]

I dont think so. But knowing our politicians I cant imaging them not to protest and raising the issue of them(us) having other symbols to wear that represent other things, more in-line with Spanish History.

RE: The Outsider's view - November'16 - Irony

Bob Russell — Thu, 03 Nov 2016 13:12:06 GMT

Royal British Legion is quite active in Spain. Helps out British ex-pats so the Spanish authorities have less to do. Lots of others wear poppies with pride and it raised hundreds of thousands of Euros last year!

Does the red poppy have particular meaning to the Spanish people?

RE: The Outsider's view - November'16 - Irony

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 03 Nov 2016 13:03:27 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

If both teams are wearing poppy's the signal sent is not political, it is respect.

[/quote]

I share your sentiment. But when you say 'both teams' and given last century's historical events... can you imagine the political upheaval in Spain if Spanish players were to wear a red poppy? ;-)

RE: The Outsider's view - November'16 - Irony

Bob Russell — Thu, 03 Nov 2016 12:50:40 GMT

I consider the decision to ban poppy armbands to be a stupid battle to have. If both teams are wearing poppy's the signal sent is not political, it is respect.

In WWI whole football teams went to France as members of 'Pals Battalions'. Quite often they died together. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Battalion

This country has chosen to use the poppy as an emblem of remembrance and unless the opposing team objects why interfere?

The Royal British Legion is politically neutral and all senior politicians will wear a poppy whatever their party.

Seeking a fight when there is nothing to gain but bad feeling! FIFA is in such a mess that it should be working with football associations not antagonising them.