Challenges facing the profession

RE: Challenges facing the profession

Jill Butterworth — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 09:51:37 GMT

No, I was meaning that as this is a creative exercise, mildly deprived areas are likely to have cheaper commercial property for the purposes of the mental exercise and more chimney pots means more pets.

Utilising PetAid or having some charity system can get a new practice started, and between this co-operating group of young supervets, will allow inexperienced enthusiastic graduates to attempt surgery like we did, rather than referring everything, (I'm assuming you are old too!) and where the client is grateful to give their pet a chance, and there is a far lower worry of litigation in these circumstances. This a major source of frustration to recent graduates and one of the differences between modern and James Herriot vetting. Let them figure out the difference between their fixed and variable costs...

RE: Challenges facing the profession

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 08:22:02 GMT

Well, I've always said that allowing non veterinary surgeons to own practices must rank as one of the daftest decisions ever made by RCVS

Wynne

RE: Challenges facing the profession

Clive Ansell — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 07:06:30 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Clive If you think nationalisation means a more ethical approach[/quote]

That is not what I said.

I was commenting on the comparison between corporatisation within the dental and veterinary professions, and that the future of corporate human dentistry is more tied to and dependant on the political situation, which party is in power, and if we ever have a left wing government again that would seek to renationalise the NHS.

What benefits has corporatisation brought to the veterinary profession? and is it ethical?

RE: Challenges facing the profession

Clive Ansell — Wed, 26 Oct 2016 06:59:30 GMT

[quote user="Jill Butterworth"]Chose an working class area with a charity black hole and the work will be there.[/quote]

Do mean clients that would otherwise go to charity clinics?

How on earth do you get them to agree and pay for anything?

One of my regular locums is in a deprived area, and is one of the most frustrating I do. Cases are usually very advanced when presented, and clients rarely consent to works up. Grim.

RE: Challenges facing the profession

J G Wray — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 22:17:46 GMT

[quote user="Martin Hamilton"]

This nails a lot of it on the head - when I am spending up to 2/3rd of my income just to keep going, how on Earth am I supposed to get a loan from a bank to invest in a £500k partnership that some places are offering these days?

It will only get worse with the 2017 graduates who will be leaving university with over £45k of debt - with student debt being a burden for longer I doubt many people will be able to risk buying into private practice

[/quote]

A1. Don't join a practice requiring a £500k loan- compromise on congruency

A2. The student debt, according to an ex RCVS President should be thought of as a marginal income tax. This is how they are thought of in the US for instance. As some have pointed out here, the tax rates being paid in the past were much higher than now, even taking in to account student loans. So, why not start in a less ambitious manner, accept compromise to income and lifestyle for a long term gain and find a new congruency?

RE: Challenges facing the profession

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 20:10:11 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

If you think nationalisation means a more ethical approach, remember that it was a nationalised industry that was responsible for Aberfan! That was a clear case of corporate manslaughter,

[/quote]

That's a bit pseudoscientific Wynne, like saying that coconut oil cures cancer because someone's uncle was cooking with it while having a tumour removed...

privatisation (or like right wingers call it: liberalisation ) doesn't ensure incorruptibility, if anything, it adds an extra step to hide accountability from the public eye.

RE: Challenges facing the profession

Jill Butterworth — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 17:30:31 GMT

I had a similar idea to Arlo's a few years ago, but found my friends were too risk averse to make it happen, so I set up alone (doable because of OOH clinics) but needed my husband to support me whilst we earned nothing at first. However, it would also have been possible to have a veterinary partner to share locum work to keep the wolf from the door. Chose an working class area with a charity black hole and the work will be there. I would consider investing in the premises, but crowd funding and other options exist to raise capital. The equipment is less of an issue, you really don't need state of the art gear to start. You could have a pharmacy and lockable mobile cupboard to solve the pinched vetergesic/milk problem that shared OOH clinics have.

Great fun thinking outside the cat box ;) ....

RE: Challenges facing the profession

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 17:06:16 GMT

If they put it in the bank, they'll probably end up paying the bank. In the 70s (Labour government) people expected to pay between 15 and 20% interest rates.

Clive If you think nationalisation means a more ethical approach, remember that it was a nationalised industry that was responsible for Aberfan! That was a clear case of corporate manslaughter, but if you google Hansard, and Aberfan, you will find a verbatim account of the parliamentary debate that followed the tribunal's findings that the NCB was unequivocally at fault. Labour MPs regarded the NCB as their pride and joy, so avoided condemnation. It took a young ( and at that time ) unknown Conservative MP for Finchley to actually come out with the truth.

Wynne

RE: Challenges facing the profession

Anthony Todd — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 16:50:53 GMT

[quote user="Martin Hamilton"]how on Earth am I supposed to get a loan from a bank to invest in a £500k partnership that some places are offering these days?[/quote]

Do a private loan from the sellers, after all what are they going to do with the money you got from the bank!!

I don't know why more don't explore this obvious avenue.

RE: Challenges facing the profession

J G Wray — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 16:41:31 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Having said that, I agree that practice ownership IS harder these days - but because staff management and employment law can be a minefield, and because the general public treats their vet differently. Generally speaking, gone is the bonded, respectful client, and in their place is a 'price comparison savvy' 'googling' 'challenging' client. There is certainly still a place for the high-level service that an independent practice can provide, but it is a tough market. [/quote]

I don't recognise this characterisation of practice ownership. I became an owner in 1992 and I think the management issues are easier to deal with now, particularly because you can get help and I think we have never had more bonded clients, but then we pre select - see past threads

RE: Challenges facing the profession

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 14:52:27 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]I might be a little over sensitive to the accusations of us all being selfish baby boomers who've always had it cushy when there were times when I worked 24/7 with two small children and still made a loss one year. [/quote]

I know where you're coming from Clare. We started from scratch 12 years ago, so the corporates were certainly around then. It was made a little easier because there were two vets, but considering I had an 8 month old at start-up, number 2 followed a year later, and we did all our own on-call, it certainly wasn't easy. It took us a few years to make a profit, and many more to get to the same level we'd been earning as assistants. I'm not sure many people are as ready to sacrifice both their time and income to gain ownership these days, but I may be wrong.

Having said that, I agree that practice ownership IS harder these days - but because staff management and employment law can be a minefield, and because the general public treats their vet differently. Generally speaking, gone is the bonded, respectful client, and in their place is a 'price comparison savvy' 'googling' 'challenging' client. There is certainly still a place for the high-level service that an independent practice can provide, but it is a tough market.

Like Clare, given my time again, I'm not sure I'd do everything the same way as I did. As she said, many sacrifices are needed. However, it is undeniable that practice ownership is the only way to achieve the maximum financial reward from the profession, albeit lower than most people think!

RE: Challenges facing the profession

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 14:34:59 GMT

Right that's it , I'm flouncing off in a huff now

I can see where you are coming from Arlo and I have the highest regard for the vets of today and their entrepreneurship so I am sure they will find a way forward despite the environment. That is why I said three or more could still build an independent practice, interests rates are very low, there are OOH clinics providing emergency cover and I have every confidence in them despite the economic climate. I think it's quite easy to look at all the negatives and not the positives.

There are also different business models today which were not around in the past. I agree with your assessment of the challenges and certainly not trying to big up our generation of vets but still maintain that it was difficult then as well as now .

Also even now I am also not sure that my choice to be a practice owner was the best one for me.

It is only since I came out if practice that I realised what aspects of life I had been missing, the weekends and the time to pursue what makes me happy. I can now accept invitations out for lunch and travel and see more of my friends. Working for someone else does have its positives, you can choose what hours you sign up for and you don't have the responsibilities, uncertainty and the seven am phone call when someone is off sick. If I had my time again knowing what it was like maybe that's what I would opt for. Who knows?

I might be a little over sensitive to the accusations of us all being selfish baby boomers who've always had it cushy when there were times when I worked 24/7 with two small children and still made a loss one year.

RE: Challenges facing the profession

Bob Russell — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 14:08:56 GMT

We have a huge influx of new vets as well.

Vet schools with hundreds in each year plus nearly half of new registrations with the RCVS being from EU graduates.

A few hundred new vets each year becoming thousands. Plenty of opportunities to lower starting salaries! Many EU graduates leaving university without the tens of thousands in student debt that English and Welsh graduates do.

RE: Challenges facing the profession

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 13:28:03 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]Arlo if vets can't share a fridge without falling out over whose food it is can you imagine the friction over shared surgery space. [/quote]

Laughed out loud, maybe that is an insurmountable problem. But I wonder if it could be addressed with a clear division between shared and unshared resources / equipment. ie could each vet have their own fridge?

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]My life might have been easier being an employee. Who knows but we did not all land with our bums in the butter and make a packet. It's always been hard work [/quote]

I sense a division between 'old hands' who say 'nothing new, it's always been hard, just pull your socks up', and 'the disillusioned'.

Is that fair, I ask myself? Sure, there have always been those who have found themselves disillusioned with their profession, the treadmill etc. Plus ça change.

But actually, circumstances have changed pretty dramatically, even in the time I've worked on the periphery of the profession. House prices have rocketed. I don't remember corporates even existing when I started working for Novartis in the 90s. The business environment has become substantially more heavily regulated. In the last 20 years, the Internet has had a big impact on how the public views the profession. There's been a huge influx of women entering the profession. Society's attitudes to work/life have also changed dramatically.

Some of these things will have considerably less of an impact on, say, a practice owner coming up to retirement, who hasn't yet had a corporate open nearby; who bought their house years ago; who has been known and commanded respect in the local community for decades.

Not having a dig at you Clare, but I do think perhaps the debate about challenges facing the profession should be less divisive (the young saying 'well bugger this for a game of soldiers'; the old saying: 'it was ever thus, pull your socks up'), and more collaborative, with the older members giving the younger ones the benefit of thinking: How have things changed since I did it, and how would I overcome the very new set of circumstances that exist today?

RE: Challenges facing the profession

Bob Russell — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 12:58:33 GMT

By charging a proper amount for the professional services offered. Sadly too many practices seem interested in growth rather than profit, presumably because they will be sold on to some mug that sees growth as success!

Unless the rush to cut margins (to put existing practices under pressure?) stops then there really is little future for the profession except perhaps for those that see it as a second household income rather than the main breadwinner.

RE: Challenges facing the profession

Martin Hamilton — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 12:37:42 GMT

[quote user="Harriet Nicholson"]

Th[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]His perception is that many of his cohort (qualified 2010) are feeling dissatisfied and want significant change to stop talented vets from leaving the profession.[/quote]

'Twas ever thus.

I think those who have problems with how things are now should seize the day and change things themselves - just like we did. What's to stop them?

[/quote]

Whats to stop them: crazy house prices rising at a rate of knots meaning few can buy let alone have any equity to secure a business loan; being female and wanting to have children at roughly the same age you would buy in; being in an unstable financial climate with little prospect of it improving.......and they are just the inital thoughts

Of course people do manage, some people cope really well but I think with banks being v diffiuclt about lending to an unknown quantity plus corporates always being able to offer more than an individual can I don't see how it will change

[/quote]

RE: Challenges facing the profession

Clive Ansell — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 12:34:22 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Maybe now we're out of the EU, the number of veterinary surgeons can be brought down to what the market can realistically support.[/quote]

Who knows what the effect of brexit will be yet?

I lawyer friend was telling me, on the very morning that the results of brexit were being announced, the international law firm where she works called an urgent meeting of senior lawyers. One of consequences was reducing the number of funded training contracts for trainee solicitors from 10 down to 3 per annum. They foresee difficult times ahead with less work.

So, I wonder what it holds for us?

RE: Challenges facing the profession

Clive Ansell — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 12:29:18 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]It is difficult to compare dental practices to veterinary ones. It is the NHS that is funding many of the dental corporates. As with any government contract, they prefer to negotiate with fewer but larger groups[/quote]

It also depends very much on the political situation, and what happens with the NHS.

This current lot are I am fairly sure trying to dismantle the NHS and continue privatising it; so we could see more large corporates in all areas of human heathy care, with nice lucrative board positions for tory (and some labour) MP's

If Labour ever get back into power with a more left wing agenda, the whole lot might disappear and be re nationalised.

watch this space.

I don't know whether or not veterinary corporates are here to stay, early days I guess, and who knows what will happen when the American debt money runs dry ??

RE: Challenges facing the profession

Bob Russell — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 09:40:47 GMT

It is difficult to compare dental practices to veterinary ones. It is the NHS that is funding many of the dental corporates. As with any government contract, they prefer to negotiate with fewer but larger groups. Look at the TB testing arrangements.

RE: Challenges facing the profession

J G Wray — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 08:53:12 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] Maybe now we're out of the EU, the number of veterinary surgeons can be brought down to what the market can realistically support.[/quote]

I tell that to my Canadian colleague, rather than my Belgian

RE: Challenges facing the profession

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 08:22:19 GMT

Maybe now we're out of the EU, the number of veterinary surgeons can be brought down to what the market can realistically support.

Wynne

RE: Challenges facing the profession

Clive Ansell — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 08:03:20 GMT

[quote user="Harriet Nicholson"]

Th[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]His perception is that many of his cohort (qualified 2010) are feeling dissatisfied and want significant change to stop talented vets from leaving the profession.[/quote]

'Twas ever thus.

I think those who have problems with how things are now should seize the day and change things themselves - just like we did. What's to stop them?

[/quote]

I think one of the biggest obstacles is the number of vets and veterinary practices now, there are too many chasing a finite amount of work along with an increasing part of the profession that is hell bent on being as cheap as possible.

I can easily walk to 7 practices from where I live, all doing the same thing, most with flashy websites showing their deals and how they can vaccinate a puppy better than anyone else.

To start up a new within that environment would be a challenge to say the least; if you did you could never compete on price, so would need to find a niche and offer something the others don't - whatever that would be? there are already national and smaller local corporates, low cost high volume sweat shops, and a good well respected large established independent hospital status practice. The work just isn't there.

RE: Challenges facing the profession

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 25 Oct 2016 07:03:41 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

feeling dissatisfied and want significant change to stop talented vets from leaving the profession

the job becoming more of a treadmill, as a result of corporatisation and the increasing tendency to refer interesting stuff.

[/quote]

Recently I was given the option of working on bank holidays, that way I would be able to have more flexibility on when to choose my holidays. My answer: I will only work on bank holidays if we charge emergency fees - I don't think the profession (or I) will benefit from equalling my job to that of a Tesco's cashier. No disrespect intended for those who work in a supermarket but I don't think we can realistically charge for our work if we accept the same conditions of minimum wage workers.

RE: Challenges facing the profession

J G Wray — Mon, 24 Oct 2016 21:32:33 GMT

[quote user="Harriet Nicholson"]

[/quote]

Lack of ......"congruence" then. Can anyone tell me when there has been "congruence"?

RE: Challenges facing the profession

Rob Loxley — Mon, 24 Oct 2016 20:09:53 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Most of the corporates are just looking at the figures. Little or no concern for staff, owners or patients. Bums on seats whatever the cost![/quote]

For many of the corporates, growth is everything, at the expense of everything - good profits included it seems