Brexit - a few months on

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Anthony Todd — Sat, 28 Jan 2017 11:43:15 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]Back in one star land, check this out. It's number of asylum seekers in Europe per country. Those 2 on the right are.......yes that's right Switzerland and Norway.[/quote]

Aren't they Registered Asylum Seekers and not [the majority?] of illegal arrivals on Eurostar etc?

Who knows how many of those there are......

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Bob Russell — Sat, 28 Jan 2017 11:11:56 GMT

Do I believe the likes of Juncker will vote for change? Not a chance.

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Neil Wheadon — Sat, 28 Jan 2017 11:03:00 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Clearly not going to happen.[/quote]

Do you not think so?

With changing political class over the next 2 years and the French opposition talking of limiting freedom of movement, once the negotiations are finished (2019-the sun explodes) Europe may be a very different place.

Neil

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Bob Russell — Sat, 28 Jan 2017 10:42:07 GMT

I was weakly pro-remain but now very 'leave'!

Clearly from the behaviour of EU politicians we are not friends and need to be punished to stop others considering leaving.

The only thing that would make me reconsider would be a complete rethink of the EU. Some politicians seem to be agreeing (according to the very leave Daily Express). Ideally
I would like leave put on hold if that is the case (or a rapid re-entry following a further referendum should the nature of the EU change).

Clearly not going to happen.

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Neil Wheadon — Fri, 27 Jan 2017 18:06:15 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]Interestingly there is a poll going around on Facebook - asking you what would you vote if they had another referendum now. The results are heavily in favour of Leave, even more so than last June. [/quote]

Likeminded friends send likeminded stuff about.

Having said that advance internet polling on social media predicted both Brexit and 'the Donald'

Neil

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Robin Grimmer — Fri, 27 Jan 2017 17:41:06 GMT

Interestingly there is a poll going around on Facebook - asking you what would you vote if they had another referendum now. The results are heavily in favour of Leave, even more so than last June.

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Bob Russell — Fri, 27 Jan 2017 17:35:25 GMT

Which tends to confirm that there is not a 'continental' feel to European countries just shared history that does not fit comfortably within political borders.

South of Switzerland is very Italian, northern parts either French or German.

The UK has always had hard physical boundaries such as the English Channel and North Sea. The European influences are there but diluted by time. Southern England had centuries of French influence for example.

I was talking about economies as much as attitudes and cultures!

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Dinu Catilina — Fri, 27 Jan 2017 17:04:14 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Ex-Eastern block countries have welcomed the freedoms EU membership bring but are still very different countries to the longer established members.

[/quote]

Not at all. Western Poland still has a German vibe to its cities. Transylvania has an hungarian and german vibe mixed with the Romanian one. South of Romania feels Italian . East Europe is not just a bunch of Russians ;)

Bucharest used to be called little Paris before WW2.

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Bob Russell — Fri, 27 Jan 2017 11:20:57 GMT

It is no more difficult to become a British citizen than before the vote. The rules have not changed. My wife applied and became a citizen a few years ago.

There is little doubt that the Home Office is going to be swamped by people applying or requesting information about applying.

If someone meets the requirements they will be granted citizenship.

The UK is different because it is an island and does have a bit of an island mentality. Mainland Europe changed quite a lot when Schengen came into being. Movement over pretty much invisible borders tends to blur the edges.

Ex-Eastern block countries have welcomed the freedoms EU membership bring but are still very different countries to the longer established members.

It may be that history makes countries happy to unite into a single multi-nation state but the UK was never going to be part of that. Perhaps the EU should be welcoming the UK making a smooth and good natured exit to allow Juncker and his cronies to complete their agenda.

I have never felt less European than I do now. Mainly a result of the harsh, aggressive doom mongering attitude coming out of Europe.

It has changed me from a generally pro-EU (albeit dissatisfied) person to one that cannot wait to go! Well done EU!

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 26 Jan 2017 23:07:26 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]I also feel that you had a choice to become a citizen and did not. Why?[/quote]

It is a misunderstanding. I am in the process of it. I was in the UK for only 6 years so before last year I had no possibility to apply. In my case I messed up big time by not reading the requirements properly. Something to be rectified soon. I hope. I can't talk for other though.

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]But maybe if that is the case, at heart you are not 'British'? [/quote]

I am generally not a very nationalistic person and I can't really understand this question. What do you mean British at heart? How can you define that? Is British at heart the Welsh or Scottish who wants independence?

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]Awaiting brickbats now [/quote]

None from me :)

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]Is Australia part of citizenship agreement with the UK similar to the EU where your rights are guaranteed?[/quote]

For as long as the union survives. The union is dead, the divorce is happening. One of the spouses may need to leave the house :(

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]Is it part of a parliament that unite both countries? [/quote]

Francisco, since I am here I always felt that UK is unique and different and in a way not european. Wherever you go in Europa, being France, Sweden or Romania there is a continental vibe that UK doesn't have. It's not better or worse just different.

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]May I remind you many of us were invited to come over and settle by British companies. [/quote]

This is irrelevant. You weren't drafted here you had a choice. A company is not the state and has no influence on the law.

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Kate Richardson — Thu, 26 Jan 2017 21:31:02 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]Is Australia part of citizenship agreement with the UK similar to the EU where your rights are guaranteed? Is it part of a parliament that unite both countries? Is really comparable with the EU? [/quote]

It was 10 years ago so things may have changed, but if I had become a citizen I would have had all the rights of an Australian born person I believe. But there were some conditions such as spending x % of the time over y number of years in Australia if I recall correctly. So not directly comparable I agree. But they were the rules and I would have had to abide by them.

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"] May I remind you many of us were invited to come over and settle by British companies. Making the UK our forever home without any bureaucracy was part of the job offer.[/quote]

Fair enough. Or not fair as it has turned out. If you were invited to come over with false promises, then maybe those companies should be held accountable or this can work in your favour?

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 26 Jan 2017 20:36:07 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

Thank you DDinu Catilina When I asked a while back if contributors to this discussion had applied for citizenship this is exactly what I was getting at but you as an 'immigrant' have expressed it better than I could. If I had stayed in Australia I would have accepted I had no say unless I had been accepted as a citizen. I empathise with how all of this is making you feel, but I also feel that you had a choice to become a citizen and did not. Why? Financial reasons? yes, I made the decision not to apply for Australian citizenship partly based on this. Or because you didn't want to give up your rights in your own country? I understand that too. But maybe if that is the case, at heart you are not 'British'? Like I wasn't 'Australian'? A cruder way of putting it would you wanted your cake and to eat it? I don't mean to be rude or offensive, and apologise if this sounds this way. I do not want any of you guys to have to be deported (and I would join the fight if that looked likely) but you have to accept what you have a right to and not, based on your status in the country you choose to live. Awaiting brickbats now (phrase courtesy of Wynne)

[/quote]

You aren't being offensive. You have your right of opinion.

Is Australia part of citizenship agreement with the UK similar to the EU where your rights are guaranteed? Is it part of a parliament that unite both countries? Is really comparable with the EU? May I remind you many of us were invited to come over and settle by British companies. Making the UK our forever home without any bureaucracy was part of the job offer.

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 26 Jan 2017 20:31:59 GMT

[quote] Like the right to smoke wherever one pleased has been removed against smokers will. Or the right to ride my motorbyke with the wind blowing in my hair.

[/quote]

Rights removed from you while you are being represented and had been offered the chance to vote a program. Hardly the same.

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Kate Richardson — Thu, 26 Jan 2017 18:59:42 GMT

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 26 Jan 2017 18:46:02 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

Just to let you know the Brexit bill have been published. It pretty much fits into a tweet.

I don't know how even Brexiteers could be happy with a bill like that.

[/quote]

What more did you expect?

Even I'm getting bored with the constant conjecture and comment. The fact is one side of a potentially nasty divorce has stated what they want, so let the game begin. The fallback to WTO rules is a natural position, but with 10% tariffs imminent, the car trade won't tolerate that mirrored in a slowdown in investment at present, so something is going to give..........and now we're courting Trump!!

Neil

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 26 Jan 2017 18:40:00 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]once you grant a right to a person, you shouldn't be allowed, at least morally, to remove that right without that person's consent.[/quote]

I agree with you if the right is permanent. But UK talked about leaving EU for quite a few good years now so we all knew that the only permanent right is the one of citizenship. If the UK was to removed citizenship from those born abroad then yes, you would be right.

But rights are being removed all the time even from citizens and this is a part of the civilised world. Like the right to smoke wherever one pleased has been removed against smokers will. Or the right to ride my motorbyke with the wind blowing in my hair.

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 26 Jan 2017 18:30:12 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

If this situation will occur is up to the scots to decide what and when and not the english.

[/quote]

Hmm.. I see. I think we will agree to disagree in there. I personally think that once you grant a right to a person, you shouldn't be allowed, at least morally, to remove that right without that person's consent. but hey ho! that's my opinion and I welcome a challenge.

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 26 Jan 2017 18:12:57 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]you conveniently left out part of my post.[/quote]

Not at all but I thought there isn't much to comment on it as the situations are not similar at all. If this situation will occur is up to the scots to decide what and when and not the english. But then this is a little bit different because there is no such thing as a Scottish passport.

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 26 Jan 2017 18:08:56 GMT

Dinu Catilina you conveniently left out part of my post. I assume you agree with me that if Scotland were to separate, English people should be allowed to reside there as they were British to start with.

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 26 Jan 2017 17:58:59 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]many EU citizens were advised by the Home Office in the past not to apply as would not confer them any rights beyond those of UK citizens.[/quote]

Many but not all. Home office advised me that it would be better to apply for a blue card even though it wasn't necessary. Same with PR. I did not and when I did I did it the wrong way but that's another story.

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]many EU citizens don't feel as immigrant between countries, [/quote]

It is irrelevant how they may feel. I for one always felt like an immigrant because I am one.

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]EU rights have been stripped from these people without their consent.[/quote]

The state doesn't need to ask for consent from non-citizens.

Basically, if one feels like driving a car, knows how to drive a car, has the right to apply for a driving license but hasn't, legally can't drive the car. Same thing.

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 26 Jan 2017 17:51:51 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]a lousy referendum with a very slim margin of victory and without taking a large group (EU citizens with right to apply for citizenship) of the population into account.[/quote]

There is no country on earth where non citizens can vote in a national matter. The right to apply means jacksh*t.

[/quote]

Yeah, true. But there are two arguments here:

- many EU citizens were advised by the Home Office in the past not to apply as would not confer them any rights beyond those of UK citizens.

- many EU citizens don't feel as immigrant between countries, they moved between cities of common rights after the UK joined the EU, the UK assumed EU regulation as part of it. Hence EU rights have been stripped from these people without their consent. I.e. If Scotland moves out of the UK, would you expect English people that have settled in Scotland to lose their right to live there? They were British to start with, in British land. The same we were EU citizens to start with, in EU land.

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 26 Jan 2017 17:33:53 GMT

There is no country on earth where non citizens can vote in a national matter. The right to apply means jacksh*t.

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 26 Jan 2017 14:20:44 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Not sure what you expected from a white paper. It was obviously prepared ready for the court case result! Parliament is not likely to go against voters.

[/quote]

It is a botched job. Just like when you prepare your assay the night before in June when you knew you had to do it since September. She had months to prepare a decent thing.

She is pretty much ignoring the separation of powers of which she is meant to obey. The Judiciary has told her the bill should be discussed with her fellow MPs. Not asking for a tick-box exercise.

Even a Brexiteer should be ashamed of this.

May is pretty much going to Brussels to ask for What?? Whatever the government wants? Is she really a representative when she is not taking into account all the constituencies? Honestly. shameful.

[quote]

That 'lousy referendum' was a vote by British people who felt strongly enough to vote. EU citizens could have applied for citizenship and a vote had they wished.

[/quote]

Could not, time wouldn't had allowed from referendum rules announcement until actual date.

[quote]

The result was leave. Should politicians have ignored a majority?

[/quote]

In the UK, your MP is your representative, not just a delegate.

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Bob Russell — Thu, 26 Jan 2017 14:08:14 GMT

Not sure what you expected from a white paper. It was obviously prepared ready for the court case result! Parliament is not likely to go against voters.

That 'lousy referendum' was a vote by British people who felt strongly enough to vote. EU citizens could have applied for citizenship and a vote had they wished.

The result was leave. Should politicians have ignored a majority?

I did not want to leave but have far fewer concerns than I did when the result was announced.

RE: Brexit - a few months on

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 26 Jan 2017 14:00:03 GMT

Just to let you know the Brexit bill have been published. It pretty much fits into a tweet.

I don't know how even Brexiteers could be happy with a bill like that. It is pretty much a blank cheque for the UK government to do whatever they think best when the only thing they have to back themselves up is a lousy referendum with a very slim margin of victory and without taking a large group (EU citizens with right to apply for citizenship) of the population into account.