Unsettling TV

RE: Unsettling TV

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Fri, 07 Oct 2016 23:46:50 GMT

In caring for my sons I have seen them bring out the best in people and the worst. Helping them to achieve their potential, which is greatly limited, has denied me a normal social life and probably curtailed the last ten years of my working life because of the support they need. I will never know what my life might have been without them. They have brought me much more joy than sadness but I grieve for the individuals they could have been had they not been disabled.

If I had known they would be disabled would I have terminated my pregnancies? I honestly don't know, my second son was born before my first was diagnosed as autistic. On reflection , yes I probably would have, to save them from the difficulties they face , not for my benefit. Once they were born then I loved them and continue to love them as much or more than any other parent loves their child. I would love them to be "cured" , life with a disability presents obstacles every single day.

I wish more people in society were more accepting and valued people like my sons as the greatest hurt is caused by society failing to include them and the rejection they and we as a family faced. I really appreciate living in this country where we do help to look after those who are unlucky enough not to be perfect but we still have a long way to go.

Things are getting better because people like my son are not hidden away from the rest of the world but it's hard work . I recently travelled with my eldest son across the states on an organised train trip and once people got used to Guy the majority of them accepted him, welcomed him and looked after us and they saw his reaction to things and he made them laugh and smile and talk to each other. I think his presence and difference makes people appreciate their own lives more and several of them have become friends and kept in touch with me.

I wouldn't wish a disabled child on anyone and I sometimes think of the man Guy could have been from time to time but I grieve for myself , he thinks he's fine and has no self pity.

I'm not sure a world where all disability is aborted would be a better place. Where would it end? Short people , those with a predisposition to illness , ugly people ? Would the very few who lived become even more excluded from all the " normal" people?

RE: Unsettling TV

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 07 Oct 2016 19:40:58 GMT

I'd rather that abortions were relatively available rather than have unwanted children brought into the world. I'm not agreeing with people using them as a proxy for contraception.

There is no way on earth my wife and I would continue a pregnancy if the child was abnormal. I read an interesting article recently suggesting that ~90% of pregnancies diagnosed with Downs are aborted, and that level has remained pretty constant.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/nov/29/downs-syndrome-bbc

Article seems to be 8 years old....

RE: Unsettling TV

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 07 Oct 2016 18:31:34 GMT

I disapprove of abortion for social/lifestyle reasons, and, in fact, the present "norm" is actually illegal. According to the Abortion Act, abortion is only legal if either the life, or the health of either the mother or the baby is at severe risk if the pregnancy continues.

Therefore, either all Downs children should be aborted, or none. My choice would be none

Wynne

( Collander on head.............yet again!!!!!!!!!!!)

RE: Unsettling TV

David Mills — Fri, 07 Oct 2016 13:53:35 GMT

The programme was the usual BBC leftist middle-class mixture of luvvie virtue signalling and right-on inclusivity. Tiresome. Had to turn off after 10 minutes but this was propaganda. It is all very well for a bit-part actress in a comfortable mainly stay-at-home life with a pre-pubescent Downs child at the milder end of the spectrum to come out with such claptrap, but the reality for many is very different. Many Downs kids can't go into mainstream school and have particular needs requiring almost constant care. That's not to mention the behavioural extremes - they often become hypersexual at a young age, which can be very demanding to deal with when they're trying to masturbate in the middle of Tescos. Every day.

Louis Theroux did a much more impressive job with a doc a while ago in America with kids with behavioural problems or disabilities. The key question in these (which I suspect the BBC happily skirted over) is: if someone had given you the choice between a disabled child and a non-disabled child, what would you have chosen? The Americans were very honest and unanimous - they'd all choose non-disabled. I suspect Ms Phillips would, in her heart, say the same. So this attempt to pervert the argument is a liberal coping mechanism at best, and damaging at the worst.

RE: Unsettling TV

Bob Russell — Fri, 07 Oct 2016 13:00:26 GMT

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/08/understanding-deafness-not-everyone-wants-to-be-fixed/278527/

The level of anger expressed by some in the "Deaf Community" can be really frightening. The capital 'D' for the community and 'd' for not being able to hear!

"The protestors were angry but acting peacefully"

RE: Unsettling TV

Bob Russell — Fri, 07 Oct 2016 12:52:54 GMT

Downs children can be wonderful but some are amazingly challenging. Downs adults can also be wonderful but some can be large, strong and challenging.

They won't always have their mums there to protect them and many/most find independent life far more difficult than the average person.

Life is plenty tough enough without such a profound disability!

How much does it cost society to care for a Downs child? Not an easy subject and does smack of eugenics but it does need to be paid for!

If 100% choose not to have a Downs child, I cannot see too much of an issue. I had to deal with a pregnancy involving spina bifida and this was a late decision. Really soul destroying at the time but clear conscience since.

Support should be available for those that do choose to continue a pregnancy but there are a few conditions that can be screened out of society. IMO no foetus is automatically worthy of life but those making the decisions should be given all the help and support in the world to allow them to come to the 'right' decision for them.

RE: Unsettling TV

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 07 Oct 2016 10:10:26 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I assume it was putting the pro-Downs point of view.[/quote]

Yes, Sally Phillips was a particularly compelling presenter, herself the parent of a Down's syndrome child, making a passionate case that Down's Syndrome children do not suffer from a disease (just an aberrant chromosome). That they are able to live happy and fulfilled lives. That their imperfection is just part of the wonderful variety in the human condition. That often, in the way the news is delivered to a pregnant mum, it is done in such a way as to pressure them into a termination (Dr saying 'I've got bad news'; midwife weeping). That the new test will effectively stop Down's children being born (in Iceland, 100% of mums who have used the test have decided to terminate, apparently). And that that is wrong, because Down's children are every bit as deserving of their place in the world as anyone else.

My heart went out Sally. She was adorable. Her child was adorable. I can quite see how awful it is for her to see society screening out children like her own, somehow implying that they are not worthy of life.

But I also think it was profoundly wrong to broadcast such a biased piece of propaganda (how could it be anything else), which may make an already hard decision even harder for parents of unborn Down's children.

And I profoundly disagreed with the idea that it is wrong to try and prevent a condition which causes such suffering both to Down's children and their parents. I couldn't help feeling that a) her child seemed to be at the 'lighter' end of the Down's spectrum, and b) that he's at the age when things are relatively (stress 'relatively') easier. What happens when he's an adult, without his devoted mum? It's all very well and good highlighting those Down's adults that have been able to live happy and fulfilled lives, but for every one that has, there'll be others that have been beset by illness and ostracised by society.

Which leads to the one good thing about the documentary; that it raised the question of how a caring society should behave.

[quote user="Bob Russell"]One of my neighbours at home was one of the first surgeons to perform cochlear implants. He has received death threats from people claiming that deafness makes someone special and curing it will threaten a whole culture that should be protected.[/quote]

I'm gobsmacked too.

RE: Unsettling TV

Bob Russell — Fri, 07 Oct 2016 09:30:59 GMT

They do, they did and Norman was one of the pioneers of the surgery. Now Harley Street!

There is no place for compulsion in disability decisions. Nothing wrong with trying to reduce or remove disabilities.

I am sure Sally Phillips would have been very happy with her family had they all had the correct chromosomes but as it is she has done a pretty impressive job of raising a family with a Downs child. Every child enriches a family, every child breaks hearts, Downs or not!

Edit: If you want to know how much resistance there is to the loss of deaf culture then Google 'Deaf culture and cochlear implants'.

Pretty mild stuff mostly but if you were blind would you remain that way if someone offered you a chance to see? Some of the most bulls+it arguments I have ever seen.

With Downs the levels of disability can range from learning disabilities right up to incompatability with life.

RE: Unsettling TV

Nicola Cole — Thu, 06 Oct 2016 22:21:47 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

One of my neighbours at home was one of the first surgeons to perform cochlear implants. He has received death threats from people claiming that deafness makes someone special and curing it will threaten a whole culture that should be protected.

[/quote]

I am speechless that people can act like that! I wonder how many of the people making the threats were actually deaf?! I know my mum has never looked back since her cochlear implants-30-40 years spent avoiding any kind of social situation because she was too embarrassed to admit she couldn't hear people. And the look on her face when she had the implant turned on and could hear every day things like birds chirping....and my dad's sarcastic replies under his breath!

RE: Unsettling TV

Bob Russell — Thu, 06 Oct 2016 09:51:58 GMT

Not seen it but will. I assume it was putting the pro-Downs point of view.

I have known a few Downs children and adults. All much loved and appreciated but the real question is 'would a 'normal' child have been as much loved and appreciated?'

There seems to be resistance amongst a minority to the idea that a particular disability should be allowed to remain because it is special.

Many disabilities are challenging for the person and those around them. If these disabilities can be reduced or prevented then it should be.

This new test is not a form of eugenics, parents will continue to have a choice to continue the pregnancy or not. Society should continue to support them whatever the decision made.

Reducing the risk of miscarriage following amniocentesis has to be a big plus.