Does God exist?

Re: Does God exist?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 01 Oct 2009 20:23:44 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Some of the very vocal advocates of atheism remind me of the extreme sects who come knocking on the door !!!!! So perhaps it is like a religion for them-that's why they are so determined to convert everyone else[/quote]

You surprise me. I have yet to meet either an individual or community of atheists who wish to 'convert' others to their 'belief'. In fact, most are happy to get on with their own life, discuss their beliefs if asked, but generally don't give a s**t what others think or do as long as they lead a good kind life!

Re: Does God exist?

Ian Mostyn — Thu, 01 Oct 2009 17:57:00 GMT

It is not that I don't want to believe, I just see so many things that blow any chance of my holding a belief out of the water.

Ian

Re: Does God exist?

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 01 Oct 2009 17:54:12 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]So perhaps it is like a religion for them-that's why they are so determined to convert everyone else[/quote]

Isn't it just the case that the more anyone believes in anything, the more determined they are to convert others?

Not sure why that should be.

Of course, if there was an omnipotent benevolent God, there is just no way that he, she or it would have given man the freedom of choice to carry out acts of such enormous abomination in his, her, or its name (as demonstrated by endemic paedophilia in the church).

Oh dear, you've got me going again!

Re: Does God exist?

Ian Mostyn — Thu, 01 Oct 2009 17:50:17 GMT

I don't have a problem with people having belief's - I just think you are wrong! What I have a problem with is the bad / evil things that happen in the name of religion. Why can't Islam get on with Christians & Jews, why do Catholics fight Protestants (for 500 years!), why did God create a Tsunami this week that killed many, many people? Why not spend all the money spent on ornate churches etc on social housing for the poor. How do you get a paedophile priest? Lots of bad things are associated with religion as well as the good things. Why can't people just be good and kind to each other??

Ian

Re: Does God exist?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 01 Oct 2009 17:31:45 GMT

Some of the very vocal advocates of atheism remind me of the extreme sects who come knocking on the door !!!!! So perhaps it is like a religion for them-that's why they are so determined to convert everyone else

Wynne

Re: Does God exist?

James Allsop — Thu, 01 Oct 2009 17:10:09 GMT

God Delusion was written by Richard Dawkins a very vocal promoter of Atheism and Neo Darwinism. I have thoroughly enjoyed all of his books that I have so far got through, but most of the Darwin books I find a little heavy going.

Re: Does God exist?

James Allsop — Thu, 01 Oct 2009 17:03:39 GMT

I've always found athiesm to be an odd term and causes a lot of missunderstanding. you get it in surveys asking what religion you are and it lists 'atheism' - this suggests that atheism is a type of religion rather than the absence of religion. surely it should say 'none' or some such?

Re: Does God exist?

Mark Frost — Fri, 07 Aug 2009 18:11:37 GMT

Reminds me of a faith based joke:

A man fell overboard from his little boat, and was thrashing around in the water when another boat pulled up. -"Jump in, we'll save you" - they screamed. -"No" - cried the drowning man, - "God will save me". The scene was repeated twice and then a helicopter hovered over the man. -"We came to rescue you" - yelled the pilot. -"No, God will save me" - was the response again. The man drowned, and as he crossed the Pearly Gates, he ran straight to Jesus. -"I placed my faith in You, and You let me drown?! "What do you mean?" said Jesus. "I sent three boats and a helicopter!"

Re: Does God exist?

Ian Mostyn — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 14:19:55 GMT

You can argue a case both ways. If god exists, why didn't he save that child? If god exists, surely he created modern medicine to save the child? Is medicine a gift from god? Possibly. They should be prosecuted as they could have potentially saved her life but they don't seem to show any remorse. If I did have faith, the loss of a child would surely shake that faith to its very roots.

Ian

Re: Does God exist?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 08:50:34 GMT

God, that is shocking. I'm amazed that anyone in modern America could have such faith as to choose prayer over medicine for their child. But should they be prosecuted for stupidity?

Re: Does God exist?

Ian Mostyn — Mon, 03 Aug 2009 22:00:29 GMT

The "power" of prayer

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8180116.stm

Re: Does God exist?

Ian Mostyn — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 21:56:22 GMT

I was driving past a church today and noticed it had a lightning conductor. How does this tie in with the presence of god? Surely god would not destroy his own buildings so is the church being hypocritical by protecting themselves against acts of god? Or are storms the work of the devil? Just a thought.

Re: Does God exist?

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 27 Jun 2009 08:11:59 GMT

Just in case you haven't seen, I've posted the results of the faith survey here:

http://www.vetsurgeon.org/blogs/veterinary_news/archive/2009/06/24/5723.aspx

Anything about these results that surprises you? I thought it interesting that vets are more polarised than nurses on this subject, though with hindsight perhaps predictable.

Re: Does God exist?

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 12:46:43 GMT

Art, you asked me for an example of something I don't understand. That last post seems as good as any. It seems to me to be a complete non sequitur. What do you mean? What is your point?

Re: Does God exist?

The SkepVet — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 12:35:01 GMT

Sorry, everyone for taking this topic off-thread>>>>

I would not worry, as long as God can make you his bitch and convince you its for your own good I am skeptical the vets who post here will feel the rath of God for going "off topic".

art malernee dvm

Re: Does God exist?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 10:46:01 GMT

Sorry, everyone for taking this topic off-thread

Wynne

Re: Does God exist?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 18:59:07 GMT

Quite so. Old Buggins, loyal backbencher for thirty years, always done what the Whips tell him (not bright enough to do otherwise frankly), give him a nice peerage now and what else? Oh yes, he's fond of dogs I believe. See if he'd like to be on RCVS Council.

Re: Does God exist?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 16:17:16 GMT

Evelyn Barbour-Hill's comment on "fourth-rate retired apparatchicks" Do you all realise that if the Veterinary Legislation Working party report is accepted, then we may end up with a RCVS Council composed of 40% appointed lay members and nearly half the veterinary members government appointeees-any guarantees that there will not be 4th rate retired apparatchicks amongst that lot

Wynne

Re: Does God exist?

The SkepVet — Thu, 21 May 2009 13:40:14 GMT

Having been on a AVMA NOAH thread once where vets promoted their opinion that pets who had died would meet them in heaven but did not want to answer the question would the turkeys they ate for thanksgiving also be there all cooked up and ready to eat or walking around glad to have been eaten by vets so the turkeys could have ever lasting life. I am skeptical of any god conversation by doctors that addresses the subject in non scientific terms. For those doctors who practice evidence based medicine ,the discipline that insist on proof that traditional medical practices actually work, the similarities between "alternative" medical beliefs and religious dogma has been noted. A complete science of medicine may have to allow for a bizarre paradox --that completely non-scientific, indeed ridiculous [medical] beliefs maysometimes have medical value. A placebo effect can be measured in humans and pets.

All animals have a repertoire of instinctive behaviour. Religion, thatis rationalized superstition, tries to justify this instinctiveintransigence in the face of more appropriate solutions to problems. Our physiology enables us to learn to ride a bicycle 'instinctively' and instead we can then 'think' about the direction in which to steer.

Humans are highly socialized animals, but very few of us are competent to deal with illness. If we 'care', or otherwise cannot ignore the patient, weare obliged to invent rituals to compensate for our lack of knowledge and to let the victim know that they are getting the attention, if not the cure,that they deserve. Enter the "art" of medicine.The sad fact is that sick people and pets are a burden and are then often isolated and lonely. It is equally unfortunate that some medical procedures ofnecessity involve the isolation and enforce loneliness of the patient bybeing treated by competent strangers rather than familiars. Try explaining to a child or pet that they will die if they refuse to leave their mother or owner and gointo the hospital. We can all agree that to the child or pet such attempts at rationalexplanation would involve unnecessary additional cruelty.We cannot always accommodate our instinct for socialization.

IMO, the best thing that can be done is for real medicine to distinguish itself from placebo medicine,in effect saying, "If you want scientificallyvalidated treatments, come here; if you want something else, go somewhere else." Medicine can't be everything to everyone, and it shouldn't try to be.

art malernee dvm

Re: Does God exist?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 21 May 2009 00:03:50 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]So if I believe that anyone who doesn't wear turquoise will go to hell, should I be knocking on other people's doors to tell them so?[/quote]

If you really really really believed it, wouldn't you want to warn everybody? Suppose you were utterly convinced there was going to be an earthquake under Manchester on July 11th 2010: wouldn't you try to warn people? Even though people called you "that mad woman again"? Oh, I hate people knocking on the door too. But not half as much as I hate telephone salesmen.

I sometimes wish there were a Hell. It would make me feel better about the Blairs (Tony and Cherie) to know that they were going to end up there.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]erm - which state? Because I'd have thought that the 'nature of the state' is due to the nature of its inhabitants - and in the UK the vast majority do not consider themselves religious or attend church. It would be interesting to know if tolerance is more likely to be found in a religious community or a secular one........[/quote]

It's just embedded in the culture, the subconscious attitudes, the feeling that we both have that in a free country people should be able to believe what they believe.... not in every attitude of every person of course; not in every law either, but in a broad subconscious feeling about what is right and what is wrong in laws...... even if the vast majority say they do not consider themselves religious, it is still the way things are. Largely through accidents of history perhaps, but it still is.

I'm sorry, I don't think I can debate that in a forum like this. It would take a long composed essay to really explain and elucidate.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"] But they should all be there because they bring something to the debate. Not just because of their faith.[/quote]

Um, that's the point. They are intelligent leaders of their faith. That's what they bring to the debate.

I think there should be rabbis and imams and Hindu priests and Buddhist monks in the Lords too. (And no fourth-rate retired apparatchiks.)

If you removed every last vestige of influence by religious organisations from every aspect of the British Constitution, it might not be any worse, but do you really think it would actually be significantly better?

Gillian and Ian, I think we will have to agree to differ. It's been an interesting discussion but it's getting beyond the point where it can be continued in back-and-forth manner.

Re: Does God exist?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 20 May 2009 18:54:35 GMT

So if I believe that anyone who doesn't wear turquoise will go to hell, should I be knocking on other people's doors to tell them so? Or leafletting them or, worse, trying to convince children of the fact? You will say I am being silly - but, to me, it is the same as telling me that if I don't worship God I'll go to hell. I believe that neither God nor hell exist - so both views are equally silly. In the same way, I wouldn't expect, or campaign for, people to become athiest. Each to their own. (I REALLY hate people knocking on my door though!!!!)

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Only in the Soviet Union or Communist China, such happy places[/quote]

I don't think people should be stopped from following their personal beliefs - therefore I don't think any parallels can be drawn between what I say and what happens in communist countries.

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"] broadly Christian nature of the state[/quote]

erm - which state? Because I'd have thought that the 'nature of the state' is due to the nature of its inhabitants - and in the UK the vast majority do not consider themselves religious or attend church. It would be interesting to know if tolerance is more likely to be found in a religious community or a secular one........

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

How many of the Lords apart from bishops do you imagine really get there on their merits?

Do bishops take bribes?

[/quote]

As to how our Lords are chosen...again...a whole different debate. But they should all be there because they bring something to the debate. Not just because of their faith.

As to whether bishops take bribes - of course they could. They are just men. Faith doesn't automatically bring honesty or integrity - they are obviously going to have the same mix of honest and dishonest men as in the rest of the wider community. If all religious men were 'good' - well, wouldn't that be nice.

Re: Does God exist?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 20 May 2009 18:22:03 GMT

[quote user="Ian Mostyn"]No, probably not, but they don't do the job for totally altruistic reasons - they want to get to heaven.[/quote]

Which is, if you stop and think about it really really hard, the same thing said in two different ways.

[quote user="Ian Mostyn"]They don't need bribes as they get their money through guilt at the offering plate and obligation at the tithe barn.[/quote]

No tithes these days.

Guilt? Next time you see anyone putting any money in any kind of collecting box, ask them if they are doing it from guilt.

[quote user="Ian Mostyn"]All the money spent maintaining cathedrals and churches could be better spent on less elaborate buildings and the change remaining used for social housing and better education / healthcare throughout the world.[/quote]

Yes. Perhaps. But how far would it actually go? And would you apply the same to every fine building or piece of art everywhere? Do you yourself own anything that's of greater quality than strictly necessary...... or even of aesthetic value only?

Re: Does God exist?

Ian Mostyn — Wed, 20 May 2009 16:18:44 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]Do bishops take bribes?

[/quote]

No, probably not, but they don't do the job for totally altruistic reasons - they want to get to heaven. They don't need bribes as they get their money through guilt at the offering plate and obligation at the tithe barn. All the money spent maintaining cathedrals and churches could be better spent on less elaborate buildings and the change remaining used for social housing and better education / healthcare throughout the world.

Re: Does God exist?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 20 May 2009 14:28:41 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]wanthem?[/quote]

"warn them"

Sorry, sticky fingers

Re: Does God exist?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 20 May 2009 14:26:44 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I just believe that faith should be a personal thing - people shouldn't try to convert others or damn them to an eternal hell for not following the path they chose in life. [/quote]

Sure. But if somebody believes they have discovered for themselves something really important or comforting or supportive, are they forbidden to try to persuade others? Only in the Soviet Union or Communist China, such happy places. And if somebody really believes that non-believers are risking burning in hell, aren't they allowed to try and wanthem? And if that's forbidden, it must surely also be forbidden to campaign for atheism.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]And because we should all be free to follow our own paths, the running of the state should be separate from any church.[/quote]

Fine. But in this complicated, messy untidy world, running the British state as a Christian one has actually worked quite well. The ironic thing is, it's the broadly Christian nature of the state which makes the country now entirely tolerant of all other religions.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]the House of Lords - just that they should get there individually on their merits,[/quote]

Um. I think their intelligence and merits actually come into it anyway.

How many of the Lords apart from bishops do you imagine really get there on their merits?

Do bishops take bribes?