Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 13 Sep 2016 18:13:39 GMT

[quote user="Phil Hyde"]I like this Arlo. How about sending it to the rcvs to ask their opinion?[/quote]

Thanks Phil

Actually, I started doing just that and found that someone else had beaten me to it, suggesting the idea directly to Mr Stace. From there, I gather it headed over to the Education Dept.

Meantime, I thought I'd lay out my finished draft on an A4 page to see what it looked like. Asking myself if it looks too daunting / text heavy etc.

Here it is (click to enlarge). Obviously there is precious little 'design' (I am not a graphic designer), but there is room for practices / RCVS to add branding. And it could be shizzshed up a bit quite easily.

I'll contact the College tomorrow to see where they are with the earlier suggestion, and whether this draft is useful to add to the discussion.

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

Phil Hyde — Sun, 11 Sep 2016 09:27:23 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

Bonjour Frenchie,

Have you seen these posters and talked to our French friends about them?

[/quote]

I've never seen one, despite now having to go to other vets to treat my own dogs!

Je vais rester vigilant.

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

J G Wray — Sat, 10 Sep 2016 17:47:52 GMT

[quote user="Phil Hyde"]I like this Arlo. How about sending it to the rcvs to ask their opinion?[/quote]

Bonjour Frenchie,

Have you seen these posters and talked to our French friends about them?

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

Phil Hyde — Sat, 10 Sep 2016 13:12:30 GMT

I like this Arlo. How about sending it to the rcvs to ask their opinion?

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 06 Sep 2016 08:56:00 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]What about also ensuring they can pay for treatment (preferably before splashing out hundreds of pounds on the latest designer puppy, or putting their bitch into whelp to make a few quid)[/quote]

Yes, I did wonder about that one, but was thinking it needs to be carefully worded to avoid accusations of money-grabbing.

How about:

Please ensure that you have the means to pay for the medical care of your animal. Unlike the NHS, we are reliant on prompt payment in order to provide the staffing and equipment needed to treat all the animals under our care. Please think about this before deciding whether to own an animal in the first place, and consider whether you need the safety net of insurance to cover treatment for unexpected medical problems.

And in order to balance that, add the following as the first bullet point under veterinary surgeons' obligations:

ABOVE ALL, our constant endeavour will be to ensure the health and welfare of animals committed to our care.

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Apart from the transport bit. There are some occasions when a visit is necessary, and Royal College rightly insist on this.[/quote]

Wynne, yes, when I was writing that, I was thinking that of course veterinary surgeons DO provide home visits, but perhaps we need to make the point that the ultimate responsibility does remain with the owner to get the animal to the practice, reflecting para 3.2.1 here:

http://www.rcvs.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/code-of-professional-conduct-for-veterinary-surgeons/supporting-guidance/24-hour-emergency-first-aid-and-pain-relief/

Maybe revise to:

When necessary and possible, we do make home visits to attend sick animals. However, it is almost always preferable to see the animal at the practice, where we have access to the full range of equipment, medicine and facilities. Ultimately, it is your responsibility to transport your animal to a place where it can receive medical attention, even in an emergency. Please give some thought as to how you can do this before an emergency happens.

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 05 Sep 2016 15:28:02 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]

What about also ensuring they can pay for treatment (preferably before splashing out hundreds of pounds on the latest designer puppy, or putting their bitch into whelp to make a few quid)

[/quote]

Like petrol stations have signs up all over saying 'make sure you have means of paying before filling up'?

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

Utlendigur — Mon, 05 Sep 2016 15:26:23 GMT

What about also ensuring they can pay for treatment (preferably before splashing out hundreds of pounds on the latest designer puppy, or putting their bitch into whelp to make a few quid)

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 05 Sep 2016 15:06:43 GMT

Apart from the transport bit. There are some occasions when a visit is necessary, and Royal College rightly insist on this.

Wynne

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

Bob Russell — Mon, 05 Sep 2016 11:56:40 GMT

Rather like it! Simple (like many clients) and to the point.

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 05 Sep 2016 11:52:44 GMT

Morning all,

Not getting many suggestions as to what this poster might contain under the obligations bit, so I'll try a few!

Dear Client

Ensuring the long term health of your animal can only be achieved through a good working partnership between you and your veterinary surgeon. It is a partnership we value, and for our part, the wellbeing of your animal is our absolute priority.

For this partnership to flourish, it's important we have a clear understanding of what we expect from each other, and where the responsibilities lie:

Our obligations
We are regulated by the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons Code of Professional Conduct, which requires that:

we only prescribe medicines for animals which we have physically examined recently enough to have personal knowledge of the current condition of the animal
we prescribe medicines which are licensed for veterinary use over, for example, sometimes cheaper alternatives licensed only for human use.
we provide emergency first aid and pain relief for animals 24/365. Outside our normal working hours, emergency care is available to our clients by ringing: xxx xxx xxx

Your obligations
Under the Animal Welfare Act 2006, you are responsible for ensuring (amongst other things) that you take reasonable steps to protect your animal from pain, suffering, injury or disease. We're here to help you meet that obligation.

Act promptly if you have a concern about your animal's health. If in doubt, ring the practice: we'll only recommend you make an appointment or get immediate help if we think it absolutely necessary for the wellbeing of the animal.
Please follow the advice we give you. Give medication as directed, for as long as directed.
It is your responsibility to transport your animal to a place where it can receive medical attention, even in an emergency. Please give some thought as to how you can do this before an emergency happens.

Sewit & Up
Veterinary Surgeons

Thoughts everyone. Any good? Rubbish? Anything else need adding?

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

Iain Richards — Fri, 02 Sep 2016 11:52:56 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]How about we/I prepare an English version, run it past the College, and make it available for download from VetSurgeon for anyone who wants to use it in their practice?[/quote]

I would like Our Royal College to put its crest and contact details on stuff like this.

[/quote]

It's what I'd expect of a first rate regulator. In one sheet of A4, easy for the consumer to understand and might reduce the number of concernants.

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 02 Sep 2016 09:28:12 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Only bullet points 3 - 4 are really applicable to everyday practice and worth posting up in a waiting room, #5 is borderline. The others are so blindingly obviously illegal/unethical and unlikely to be requested in a normal practice anyway I really can't see the necessity to post them up.[/quote]

OK - perhaps a better way of doing this ...

What ARE the most common things asked for / done by clients in the UK which are either frowned upon, illegal or unethical?

Personally, I think if there is to be a poster, it might need to contain things which the College wouldn't necessarily put its name to!

For example (this is just something very rough I've rattled out):

Dear Client

For this partnership to flourish, it's important we have a clear understanding of what we expect from each other, and where the responsibilities lie:

Our obligations
We are regulated by the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, which requires that:

this
that
and the other

Your obligations
Under the Animal Welfare Act, the ultimate responsibility for the care of your animal rests with you.

Don't buy a great dane if you are 145 years old and unable to get it in the car to see us.
Act promptly if you have a concern about your pet's health. Don't wait for 5 years and then ring us at 11:59pm on Christmas eve. If in doubt, ring.
Follow the advice we give you.
and a few other things

Sewit & Up
Veterinary Surgeons

Could this be the basis for something? If so, what do you see as the obligations on each side?

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Nor me, and I imagine a lot of clients or members of the public will just see it as too rich vets trying to make even more money.[/quote]

I think written well, it could overcome this. The 'contract' (if you like) needs to carry the message (written or unwritten) that this is NOT about the money.

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

Anthony Todd — Thu, 01 Sep 2016 09:13:09 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I really can't see the necessity to post them up.[/quote]

Nor me, and I imagine a lot of clients or members of the public will just see it as too rich vets trying to make even more money.

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 31 Aug 2016 16:23:56 GMT

Only bullet points 3 - 4 are really applicable to everyday practice and worth posting up in a waiting room, #5 is borderline. The others are so blindingly obviously illegal/unethical and unlikely to be requested in a normal practice anyway I really can't see the necessity to post them up.

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

J G Wray — Wed, 31 Aug 2016 13:44:46 GMT

I would like Our Royal College to put its crest and contact details on stuff like this.

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 31 Aug 2016 12:37:23 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Would this be helped, in part at least, by something "authoritative" from OUR Royal College?[/quote]

I'm sure it would add more weight, yes. But equally, would it not be almost as good coming from the practice (as seems to be the case in the example you posted above)?

How about we/I prepare an English version, run it past the College, and make it available for download from VetSurgeon for anyone who wants to use it in their practice?

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

J G Wray — Wed, 31 Aug 2016 12:17:02 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Client education is the best we can attempt.[/quote]

Would this be helped, in part at least, by something "authoritative" from OUR Royal College?

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

Bob Russell — Wed, 31 Aug 2016 11:27:25 GMT

Unenforceable unless a welfare related issue results and it gets reported to the authorities!

Client education is the best we can attempt.

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 31 Aug 2016 11:22:50 GMT

That's not just "not a great idea" it's a criminal offence. It's illegal for lay persons to administer a POM to an animal, unless acting on the instruction of a veterinary surgeon.

Wynne

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

grumpyoldman — Wed, 31 Aug 2016 10:16:47 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]and add on that's it's illegal to resell returned medication[/quote]

You could also say its not a great idea to give the neighbours/friends /mothers/aunties etc unused metacam for its lameness while its on preds for its skin, and then not mention what you did when the dog starts with HGE. My favourite bank holiday consult !!.

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 31 Aug 2016 08:49:31 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

Too ambitious just now. Go for smaller wins first.

[/quote]

This is the problem.

How slowly do you really want to walk? .

By the time you achieve your small goal, we will be even further behind.

We, as a profession, are behind on this sort of cover. A contract would not even settle spurious claims easier, but it would mean less of them. Because people will read what they sign if they intent to complain, instead of giving away endless leafleats of information that people just throw away after the first vaccination.

Same thing with hours worked by veterinary employees.

We are not the centre of the universe, and therefore, key legal changes in these areas are necessary, because the public won't change their feelings towards us by having things published in the news every now and then. To protect businesses, employees and ultimately create an environment where pets' health are given the maximum importance, or at least, satify the expectation of our clients, we need deep rooted changes where these expectations are properly defined, and that need to happen at a legal level.

You are proud to say you publish your fees in your site, well done.

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

J G Wray — Tue, 30 Aug 2016 16:11:24 GMT

Too ambitious just now. Go for smaller wins first.

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 30 Aug 2016 10:45:33 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

Who'd like to see the RCVS provide vets with a similar poster?

[/quote]

It's not a poster what you need.

It's a signed contract before you register/see any animal at your practice.

It is seems pretty illogical to me that you need to go through pages of cliking/signing disclaimers for purchasing a simple mobile phone contract (I mean, what really could go wrong that couldn't be fixed by just giving you another one?) but when you see an animal for 10 minutes (if so), you can potentially lose your livelyhood over missing/omitting detail.

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 29 Aug 2016 13:21:14 GMT

ME.............and add on that's it's illegal to resell returned medication.

Wynne

RE: Optometrists examinations, veterinary examinations - lessons from France, once again

J G Wray — Mon, 29 Aug 2016 13:09:59 GMT

OK this poster with their Regulator's insignia on it articulates some issues to clients.

It begins with a direct address to clients

It points out that veterinary practice is a legally regulated activity in respect of medicine and surgery and provides the Statutory references.

It points out that vets have both a professional set of responsibilities and serve the public interest

Then it lists stuff vets won't do, so don't ask

They won't provide a certificate of health without having examined the animal
They won't certify rabies vaccination unless recorded in a European passport
They won't provide repeat meds if another vet is caring for the animal
They won't provide medication to an animal they haven't examined or followed up or outside their care protocols
They won't use a human medication if there is an appropriate veterinary drug
They won't certify something they haven't done
They won't certify animals or carcases for export without seeing and clearly identifying them or having reliable veterinary support information

Then there is a bit about telling the client that if they try and pass off false information there are grave legal sanctions for them, not the vet.

Who'd like to see the RCVS provide vets with a similar poster?