Saturday vet holidays and contracts

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

Rob Loxley — Sat, 27 Aug 2016 08:53:46 GMT

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]OK to do with a couple of people that have been employed to do ad-hoc work (eg reception holiday cover)[/quote]

But a member of staff on a regular rota for every other weekend is hardly ad-hoc?

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

Michael Hamblin — Sat, 27 Aug 2016 07:23:09 GMT

Are you sure you have calculated that correctly? If working every other Saturday that is 26 Saturdays out of 52.

5.6 weeks pro rata is 5.6*26/52 = 3 Saturdays not 6 and perfectly reasonable.

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

mariette asselbergs — Fri, 26 Aug 2016 19:55:03 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Whether deliberately factored in or not, it's money that has to be obtained from owners, and therefore makes veterinary medicine less affordable.

I'm rather amused that a self-confessed left-winger is prepared to comply with a working arrangement that reduces tax. Obviously, when it comes to her own money, she is as opposed to taxation as the rest of us!

Wynne

[/quote]

Don't know if you mean me Wynne, but none of us are avoiding any taxes. We pay just as much as anybody else (I am not a "company"). If the employer doesn't have to pay their part in the NI, then that obviously adds to my invoice if I have to pay it (I don't, am too old and wouild happily pay it but cannot do so not even voluntarily - crazy system).

Mariette

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 26 Aug 2016 15:38:47 GMT

Yes You have more rights if you are a criminal than someone in business. The police can't enter your premisis without a warrant. HMRC can.

Wynne

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

Bob Russell — Fri, 26 Aug 2016 14:26:31 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

There is a very strict HMRC definition of who is acting as a locum and who is an employee. Someone working on a regular basis is likely to be considered a part-time employee, therefore on PAYE.

The risk with getting it wrong is to receive a bill from HMRC for tax and NI plus penalties and interest! Can be expensive, time consuming and ultimately a losing wicket to fight HMRC.

What does your accountant recommend?

[/quote]

This problem only comes up if the locum doesn't pay her/his proper tax and NI. I have always worked as a self employed locum, part time for different practices but often on regular days, and with knowledge of the HMRC who have never given me or my "boss" any grieve.

In my present job all of us (12 people in all) work as self employed vets and nurses ("consultants"). We have a rota for more than a year in advance, we are responsible for our own patients and work, and if we want to go travelling for 3 months we have to supply a substitute. Works great, gives you great freedom. But depends on people being honest and dedicated. No problems with HMRC.

Mariette

[/quote]

One of the key things here is 'we have to supply a substitute'. This is one of the factors that separate a locum from an employee. It sounds as if you are genuinely self-employed and acting as a locum.

HMRC may only see this flagged up as a problem if the 'locum' does not pay their taxes & NI but they can (and do) inspect practices. If they feel the practice and/or locum are playing the system to reduce their tax then they will intervene and apply penalties even if everyone believes they are above board.

HMRC have quite frightening powers!

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

Laurence Webb — Fri, 26 Aug 2016 14:03:02 GMT

Pay your Saturday worker, but then reimburse them for untaken holiday. Citation have advised me that this is OK to do with a couple of people that have been employed to do ad-hoc work (eg reception holiday cover).

Assuming that you know how much you want to pay them in total then you can reduce their basic rate so that this plus untaken holiday equals the total that you had in mind.

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 26 Aug 2016 07:38:46 GMT

Whether deliberately factored in or not, it's money that has to be obtained from owners, and therefore makes veterinary medicine less affordable.

Wynne

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 25 Aug 2016 09:09:02 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] Also saves the employer a hefty ( 12.8%) extra charge for employers NI which would have had to be got out of the animal's owners[/quote]I don't imagine you really factor this into the fees but I occasionally remind my staff when they moan about pay that I'm already paying more than half their NI, its surprising how many employees don't realise that we have to do this. Now we're expected to find the extra for the work place pension, 1% and escalating. I've absorbed this for now but they have been warned that this can't continue to come from thin air and will be subtracted from their bonuses or any future pay rises.

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 25 Aug 2016 08:49:38 GMT

Also saves the employer a hefty ( 12.8%) extra charge for employers NI...........which would have had to be got out of the animal's owners

Wynne

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

mariette asselbergs — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 22:50:12 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

There is a very strict HMRC definition of who is acting as a locum and who is an employee. Someone working on a regular basis is likely to be considered a part-time employee, therefore on PAYE.

The risk with getting it wrong is to receive a bill from HMRC for tax and NI plus penalties and interest! Can be expensive, time consuming and ultimately a losing wicket to fight HMRC.

What does your accountant recommend?

[/quote]

Mariette

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 12:56:55 GMT

[quote user="KMurphy"]I've done plenty. I'm not any less of a person for wanting some weekends off.[/quote]I should have put a smiley. Not meant as a criticism more making myself out as a martyr and I would feel guilty paying someone to do it if it wasn't for a purpose. It was just a suggestion really it is obviously your choice if you want to pay someone else. It took me several years to be at ease with using someone else for my OOH cover.

I have no problem with Saturdays as I only do mornings 9-11 and I would probably not do much before that time anyway on a normal weekend so its not a big deal and as said if I need Saturday off I've either got a locum already as its part of a holiday or the OOH provider covers it.

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

KMurphy — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 11:59:05 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]ou could man up and do all your own Saturdays [/quote]

I've done plenty. I'm not any less of a person for wanting some weekends off.

[quote user="Iain Richards"] a regular day might be regarded as a part timer rather than locum.[/quote]

Yes, that's what I thought and the advice given previously by my accountant. Thanks for all the advice everyone. I'll just make it work one way or another.

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

Iain Richards — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 11:38:36 GMT

As other posters have stated, a regular day might be regarded as a part timer rather than locum. Does the locum do other work for other practices - that will help. As will the locus telling you which Saturdays they can work (thus the locum is deciding the hours).

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 11:13:15 GMT

You could man up and do all your own Saturdays as I have done for the past 36 years! I'm so used to it I feel guilty or at a loose end if I don't work. I assume you don't work Sunday and use an OOH provider for that so could you not ask them to cover you for an odd Saturday if you really need to take one off? That's what I do.

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

Bob Russell — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 10:42:58 GMT

There is a very strict HMRC definition of who is acting as a locum and who is an employee. Someone working on a regular basis is likely to be considered a part-time employee, therefore on PAYE.

The risk with getting it wrong is to receive a bill from HMRC for tax and NI plus penalties and interest! Can be expensive, time consuming and ultimately a losing wicket to fight HMRC.

What does your accountant recommend?

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 01:31:59 GMT

I don't really see why someone working every Saturday shouldn't be entitled to the same benefits (pro-rata) the other vets receive - including paid holidays.

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

rhmrcvs — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 22:47:46 GMT

I have a couple of people who work as self employed, therefore no holiday pay etc. They invoice me the time they work, down side is if they can't come in , they can't come in. If they want lots of time off they have it , but we have a good relationship and normally they try to give lots of advance rota notice. Is perfectly ok to work on self employed basis BUT not if the days / hours are always the same. I agree with Wynne Richards, check with solicitor and accountant to be safe. ps daily rate for employed cf self employed will be lower to take into account costs.

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

Rob Loxley — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 19:48:16 GMT

[quote user="Sammy82"] I think it might be possible to not take the time off and get paid extra, if that is what you prefer[/quote]

No, the law does not allow the employer and employee to contract out of the statutory minimum holiday entitlement

As a way round potentially: if you want her to be there for 24 Saturdays per year then you could consider contracting her to work 27 Saturdays per year giving her 2.9 days statutory leave which you could add with 0.1 days contractual leave?

Remember in years when Christmas day or Boxing day fall on saturdays, if you are closed anyway, you can make them count this as one of their leave days.

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 19:32:37 GMT

[quote user="KMurphy"]You're right about the 3 rather than 6 Saturday mornings; I wasn't paying attention when I came up with 6 Saturdays. That is somewhat better but I'm still not delighted with it! [/quote]

8 hours 24 minutes in fact. You are not allowed to round this down, so it's still 3 Saturdays off with full pay, unless you wish to insist that she comes in for 36 minutes on one of them.

It's really fun, isn't it!

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

KMurphy — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 17:59:53 GMT

Thanks for all the suggestions.

You're right about the 3 rather than 6 Saturday mornings; I wasn't paying attention when I came up with 6 Saturdays. That is somewhat better but I'm still not delighted with it!

[quote user="Sammy82"] I think it might be possible to not take the time off and get paid extra, if that is what you prefer.[/quote]

I'm not sure that this is legal anymore. I think that counts as "rolled up" holiday pay.

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"] is there any reason you can't carry on with them on a locum basis?[/quote]

I think this would be my preferred option, ultimately. I think that there is a possibility that HMRC can pursue you for PAYE and NI retrospectively if they consider somebody an employee (regular hours etc) and my accountant has previously recommended I avoid this situation. I suppose if I have a contract with a locum that clearly states she is self-employed and responsible for her own taxes that this shouldn't be an issue.

Being an employer is much harder work than being a veterinary surgeon! There seem to be so many ways to trip yourself up! It seems crazy that someone working 6 hours a month should be entitled to holidays or holiday pay!!

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

Marie Kubiak — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 17:30:01 GMT

[quote user="KMurphy"]

My accountant has always recommended that any regular workers be put on the payroll to keep me right with PAYE etc.

[/quote]

I might be missing the point but is there any reason you can't carry on with them on a locum basis? That way you carry no responsibility for their tax and other issues and can continue as you are. I do this with a supplier contract in place where I do one day a week at a clinic long-term and have no qualms about it and am not given any perks like pension/paid holiday or sick leave but set my fees based on the individual situation. You could always give them the option of a contract with slight drop in daily wage to reflect the reduction in days worked with change in employment or stay as they are.

Marie

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 17:27:13 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I think you should ask your solicitor. as you need proper professional advice on this - cheaper than falling foul of an industrial tribunal!

Wynne

[/quote]

Or the free BVA legal helpline.

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 17:12:20 GMT

I think you should ask your solicitor. as you need proper professional advice on this - cheaper than falling foul of an industrial tribunal!

Wynne

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 16:39:35 GMT

[quote user="KMurphy"]

However, if this is the case then they are entitled to 5.6weeks holiday pro rata, which effectively means 6 Saturdays off where I would have to work anyway but pay them too. Out of the 24 or so they would be doing, this seems a sizeable chunk!!

[/quote]

I'm not sure on the legality, but by my calculations give just under 3 days holiday. If she worked 52 Saturdays she would be entitled to 5.6 days off, so if she works 26 Saturdays then it's 2.8 days off. Could she book off 3 Saturdays as holiday, but then you pay her overtime to work them?

RE: Saturday vet holidays and contracts

Sammy82 — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 16:35:24 GMT

I am not sure if there is any other legal way than PAYE, but if you only work every 2nd Saturday 5.6 weeks pro rata would mean only 2.8 Saturdays. I think it might be possible to not take the time off and get paid extra, if that is what you prefer.