Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

Bob Russell — Thu, 18 Aug 2016 10:56:39 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

Thanks for that Mike, very informative.

For the moment we have decided to "let sleeping dogs lie" since nothing is straight forward in our family, my work and my health situation at the moment.

But all advise on this thread will be carefully taken into account when the time comes.

Thank you all.

Mariette

[/quote]

Nothing wrong with that IMO. It is almost unthinkable that the UK government is going to make it difficult for remaining EU nationals to stay in the UK.

What I believe will change is that EU nationals will need to demonstrate they will not be a burden on the state for a set period.

What a shame this was not adequately addressed by JC Juncker and his euro cronies before the referendum, a small change in remain votes would have made all the difference.

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

mariette asselbergs — Wed, 17 Aug 2016 20:19:09 GMT

Thanks for that Mike, very informative.

For the moment we have decided to "let sleeping dogs lie" since nothing is straight forward in our family, my work and my health situation at the moment.

But all advise on this thread will be carefully taken into account when the time comes.

Thank you all.

Mariette

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

Bob Russell — Wed, 17 Aug 2016 09:08:29 GMT

As I stated in one of my posts, to apply for residence as an EU citizen you don't actually need a form at all. It just 'helps'!

The 80 something pages can be whittled down to a handful and the form completed in less than 30 minutes if you are used to UKVI/Home Office application forms.

One form for many application types seems to be their choice. Such a shame they don't take advantage of drop down menus to simplify an application. Too simple?

Citizenship applications are generally a lot more involved than residence applications. This is because there is no automatic right to citizenship!

I have helped a number of people (including my wife) to citizenship but the form is not generally as bad as it looks!

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

Mike Nikolaou — Tue, 16 Aug 2016 09:34:18 GMT

Hi Mariette,

Have you seen this website?

https://www.freemovement.org.uk/

It's written by a solicitor (alarm bells) that suggests you don't need the 85 page form to apply for the permanent residence card. You can explicitly use the older forms which weren't as intrusive.

I'm in the process of doing the same thing, just trying to get my head around it and collect the mountains of paperwork. I will be applying for citizenship however as my country (Greece) allows double citizenship luckily.

After 16 years and very heavy investment in this country, for me this is an awful situation to be in and I'm sure you are feeling the same. Chin up.

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

Bob Russell — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 11:38:08 GMT

There is no such thing as 'common law wife or husband' in law in England. It is a term of convenience.

We are discussing applications to the Home office for residence purposes. Sadly the vast majority of solicitors are very badly equipped to deal with immigration issues. There are numerous cases where they have just made assumptions and applications have been rejected.

There are very specific recommendations made as to suitable paperwork to send as evidence of what they now call a 'durable' relationship.

The Home Office has accepted that it does not need bedroom videos to show a durable relationship. They recommend a set number of letters/statements, preferably in joint names over each of the previous two-five years. This is not 'beyond reasonable doubt' but is 'on the balance of probabilities'!

Rather than use a solicitor it is often better to use a OISC registered immigration advisor. Even here there are different levels of advisor able to deal with issues at different stages. If anyone is tempted to use a solicitor, it is crucial that they have specific immigration expertise. The law Society has a list of experienced advisors! Many screw ups I have seen have been created by inexperienced solicitors who believe the immigration system works like the courts!

Proof of co-habiting is a big part of the requirement, often enough. It helps to have joint finances such as lease agreements/HP etc.

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

Sarah Keir — Mon, 08 Aug 2016 18:14:18 GMT

I am pretty sure that common law wife/husband is only a legal state in Scotland. In England you need marriage/civil partnership and a piece of paper, it is not adequate to have proof of co-habiting. I think you should check this out with someone who's profession it is to deal with the law!

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

Bob Russell — Mon, 08 Aug 2016 17:52:12 GMT

However in the real world it will be 'we are part of Europe, value those wishing to work in the UK and bring the extra fun and variety that comes with a multicultural nation.

It may be necessary to show available employment to get some form of work permit or it might just be that income related benefits are limited!

What a shame the bigots have been given any ammunition! The UK has been accepting immigration as a good thing for centuries. Most of us are 'mongrels'!

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

mariette asselbergs — Mon, 08 Aug 2016 15:02:09 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

Not with people in the local shop asking you when you are going home now...

[/quote]

I'm not sure whether to be appalled or just baffled. Why would they do that?

[/quote]

Because after Brexit they think that is what is supposed to hsappen. We "don't belong here" and our stay should be temporary.

Mariette

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

mariette asselbergs — Mon, 08 Aug 2016 15:00:24 GMT

"Get it done, sorted and settled!!" Bob Russel

Thanks for your posts Bob, will do now!

Mariette

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

Bob Russell — Mon, 08 Aug 2016 14:28:24 GMT

If you have an official id card then that can be sent instead. It can generally be used as id to fly. Not sure if the Netherlands issue id cards!

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

mariette asselbergs — Mon, 08 Aug 2016 14:22:15 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

Mariette, I have sent mine. They got back in 4 weeks and I was told it will take about 6 months for the application to be evaluated. Send it and stop worrying, no point if you don't have any influence on it anyway.

[/quote]

Ah 4 weeks sounds doable. I was afraid to get stuck here on an island for more than 10 weeks unable to leave because my passport would be somewhere in the home office....What if something would happen to the kids in Ansterdam or Dublin. But 4 weeks sounds ok. I will probably send it off then.

Mariette

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

Bob Russell — Sat, 06 Aug 2016 09:43:24 GMT

The six months evaluation is nothing to worry about either. It will sit in a very large pile and will take minutes to process when they get to it.

At the moment there will be a long wait because there are student visas to process. Leave to remain, permanent residence and naturalisation applications get lower priority because immigration status goes on hold while they are processed. No hurry from their point of view but very frustrating if you have paid thousands for an application.

Some staff get moved to passports as well. Busy time of year!

These really are rubber stamp jobs! £65 please! Thank you!

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

Dinu Catilina — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 20:38:54 GMT

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 20:21:47 GMT

Mariette - I don't think you have any fear of sending off your passport - if you are not leaving the country in that time.

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 19:02:49 GMT

Ah, reminds me (forgive the Friday night ramble) of when one of the American Kennedy clan was in Northern Ireland doing his best to broker an IRA victory and increase his Irish vote back home. One of the soldiers there to protect him stepped out of line a little and said to him "Why don't you go back to your own country?" Kennedy, thinking himself smart, replied "Why don't you go back to yours?" to which the soldier snapped back "I'm in it!"

Sorry, completely irrelevant really.

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

Bob Russell — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 18:06:53 GMT

The UK has a number of twisted and idiotic individuals. The correct answer is 'this is home'!

A 'lady' bumped into my wife in Primark and let fly at her. I bet she won't make that mistake again!!

Sadly many in the UK have limited education and even less understanding. Perhaps one of the reasons the Brexit vote was for out!

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 17:36:31 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

Not with people in the local shop asking you when you are going home now...

[/quote]

I'm not sure whether to be appalled or just baffled. Why would they do that?

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

Bob Russell — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 17:14:26 GMT

It can and IMO should be based on your relationship. The latest description they use is 'durable partner'!

Applications based on relationships are more likely to fall under Human Rights legislation rather than EU law as such. This means there is a lot less wriggle room for the Home Office.

The ridiculous 80 odd page application form is surprisingly simple! Demonstrating that you have been living together for the required time is not that difficult. It is suggested but not a legal requirement that the applicant provides documents for each of the five years sent to you both at the same address.

Going on-line and printing old bank statements is just about the easiest nowadays. Joint account is ideal but separate statements to the same address is fine. DVLA, Tax letters, Council Tax statements etc. Even a letter from a joint accountant confirming living at the same address will help.

The onus is much more on the Home Office to 'disprove' the application than if the partner is non-EU.

The documentation requirements are not set in stone. You don't even have to use the actual form! It just helps.

I did a 'dummy' work through using a fictitious EU non-married partner and did the form and list of documents in about 15 minutes. I accept I have filled in this type of form many times before!

You can fill in the sections on work if you wish but the likelyhood of rejection is pretty much close to nil. In the unlikely event of rejection you would be told why and have the fee less £25 returned!

EU nationals in 'common law' relationships with British citizens do not get held and deported. It would be illegal to do so.

People turning up a ceremony to find Border Force officers waiting have all been overstayers from outside the EU or suspected of entering sham marriages.

You are here legally!!!!

Copy and keep a copy of your passport and send documentation by registered or recorded delivery. It will get there! The copy is just for a crisis situation. Keep copies of every document you send.

All applications I have been involved with have been granted! Only once was anything returned but that was someone being over enthusiastic!

Get it done, sorted and settled!!

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

mariette asselbergs — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 14:43:14 GMT

"This is based on your family relationship rather than work. You do not need to show proof of working or paying tax, just that you are in a relationship akin to marriage! Costs the same." Bob Russell

Thanks so much for your very useful and experienced advise Bob.

My right of residence can not be based on family situation since we are not married or civil parnered. We are thinking of doing so, might help in the future maybe.

I would base my position on having worked in employed and self employed status for 10 years, paid taxes including council taxes for the house I own; I am also financially self sufficient with my part) Dutch state pension. However i do not have the required comprehensive sick insurance and won't be able to get one I can afford. It will exclude most things and still cost a fortune.

I sort of trust that there will be no early dawn raid to deport us, although this has happened to people, e.g. when they registered for a civil partnership.

And should I feel happy having to send in my original passport (a photocopy will not do) for a minimum of 10 weeks, with the chance that my application is refused and they have my passport? Hmmm maybe not.

Mariette

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

mariette asselbergs — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 14:29:06 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

and this report from yesterday http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/commentary/here-today-gone-tomorrow-status-eu-citizens-already-living-uk

[/quote]

This is a very thorough and clear document which does not reassure me much.

For example it makes clear how important, and how difficult it is to give proof of "having lived here for x years". In Holland any foreigner who is not a tourist must register in the town they live in, so there is documented proof of how long you have lived there. In the UK you don't register and there is no documented proof. An NI number is no proof, having paid council tax is no proof.

Of EU citizens from original Eu countries who applied for confirmation of right of residence, 25% were refused! No reason given although you can re-apply.

If you are not working and earning enough money, e.g. studying, self employed, self sufficient on your pension, or temporarily not working e.g. because ill or on chemotherapy or something, then you must give proof of having comprehensive sick insurance. Who has that? It means you can be refused access to the NHS.

The document also makes clear why these applications can presently not be accepted: there are 3 million EU citizens living in the UK, the home office only has capacity to deal with max 24000 applications per year......I understand the problem, but again, it does not reassure me.

Having already lost my "permanent residency" in one country where I lived and worked for 30 years, and still own a house and a farm, once before, because the government understandably wanted to stop large scale immigration of Europeans/foreigners, I have no trust in a government acting benevolently in "the British way". Not with people in the local shop asking you when you are going home now...

best thing maybe, load up the landrover and become nomads.

Mariette

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

Bob Russell — Thu, 04 Aug 2016 14:55:59 GMT

I think Evelyn has it absolutely right when he says "This is not the British way"!

I am quite sure that the only reason to hold back on a decision to allow clarification of status is because there has been no comparable decision regarding UK nationals resident in the EU.

I would hope this will be top of the list to be sorted. It will provide a degree of security for everyone.

Mrs May is very experienced in dealing with immigration as she was Home Secretary. She will make sure there will be a 'very British deal' which will be fair.

It may make sense to introduce a registration system quite quickly. Many European countries already require non-citizens to register. My younger son did when he went to university in Maastricht. This will speed things along later especially if there is a cut off point for automatic permanent residence.

Only the British could produce an 85 page application form that requires you to fill in a handful of pages! It can be unsettling to complete such a long form in a few minutes!

Only the British would ask 'how often do you see (meet) your partner?', 'when did you last see your sponsor (partner)?', 'how do you keep in touch with your partner?'

I remember answering similar questions (doing an application for my wife), nearly put 'too often, this morning over breakfast and by talking'. Decided against it in the end!

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

Rob Loxley — Thu, 04 Aug 2016 14:22:00 GMT

and this report from yesterday http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/commentary/here-today-gone-tomorrow-status-eu-citizens-already-living-uk

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

Bob Russell — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 18:19:41 GMT

Check whether you should be using EEA (QP) or EEA (PR)!

QP is for residence based on exercising your treaty rights. This is fine as you have been doing this but you will probably find EEA (PR) more straight forward!

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/506058/EEA_PR__guide-to-supporting-documents_v1_3_2015-12-04_KP.pdf

This is based on your family relationship rather than work. You do not need to show proof of working or paying tax, just that you are in a relationship akin to marriage! Costs the same.

This can only be done by post and not at the premium service centres.

Giving immigration advice is a regulated service so all I can do on a semi-public forum is point you at a suitable form and let you get on with it. Feel free to PM me if you are unsure!

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

Bob Russell — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 17:29:21 GMT

First point is easily dealt with! Marriage is not essential. Civil partnerships are considered the same as is living in 'a relationship akin to marriage'! Evidence required, jointly addressed documents, joint financial agreements etc etc. My (now) wife just showed registration letter from GP and stuff addressed from DVLA!

Hope I was not coming over as being unsympathetic because I was not! Dealing with the people working in these departments can be a horrible experience.

The point I was trying to get across is that you do not need to be British. You are already entitled to permanent residence without paying a penny! There must be some sort of reciprocal arrangement because lots of British reside in other EU countries and will need similar protection.

Priority appointments are released in batches around midnight (I think) and can be hoovered up rapidly! Appointments well in advance show as unavailable despite not even being open to being booked! I will check if this is still the case and get back to you!

RE: Trying to get confirmation of right of residence as a EU person

mariette asselbergs — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 17:17:55 GMT

Hi Bob, I respect that you have much more experience with dealing with these guys.

We are not married, but would like to. I need this confirmation of right of residence and the document needed is the one you mention (EEAQP). This is because they do not accept any other proof that I have lived and worked and paid my tax here for the last 11 years.

You can only ask for an appointment to hand the application for this document in (if you don't want to send your passport off for at least 10 weeks or longer), by asking for it on the website. The answer you get is that there are no appointments available. Ask again in 10 weeks time.

Yes I might qualify to change nationality, but if I do so I lose my Dutch passport (Holland does not allow double nationality), and my Dutch state pension without getting any right to an English/British one. So that is not an option either.

What worries me, is that in the application document they ask specifically what your provisions are for health care, suggesting that you would not automatically have access to the NHS. I know this is just speculation, but it is certainly what the "leave" campaigners would like to see: "Our NHS for "our citizens". Don't misunderstand me: nothing is straightforward happening in this area, yet.

Mariette