Cascade and taking the p++s!

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

Marie Kubiak — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 13:19:05 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Which my wife grows in abundance in the greenhouse. It then is directly added to food!

[/quote]

That's ok though isn't it? Human prescribing favours generics. As long as she dosn't try to feed her generic lemongrass to your pets and avoids administering POM-V insect repellants to you then everyone's happy!

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

Bob Russell — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 11:02:59 GMT

Which my wife grows in abundance in the greenhouse. It then is directly added to food!

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

Thomas Johnson — Fri, 05 Aug 2016 09:25:24 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Personally, I think the crowning folly came when they made a fuss about oil of citronella not being licensed for use in fly repellants. The name tells you what it is..............lemon peel.

You can grind up lemon peel and put it in lemonade. You can grind up lemon peel and put it in a sponge cake. You can grind up lemon peel and put it in lemon curd. You can't grind up lemon peel and spray it on the outside of a horse, in case you poison someone who later eats that horse!

[/quote]

I completely agree with your point, but citronella comes from lemongrass, not lemons.

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 04 Aug 2016 17:27:11 GMT

Personally, I think the crowning folly came when they made a fuss about oil of citronella not being licensed for use in fly repellants. The name tells you what it is..............lemon peel.

Wynne

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

Bob Russell — Thu, 04 Aug 2016 10:25:54 GMT

The danger for 'big pharma' is that the publicity generated could be disastrous for them!

Big drugs company after a 'simple' vet doing his best for his patient in the face of greed. Not sure even the expensive PR consultants would find that easy to overcome. Enter the Daily Mail!

Not sure anybody wants this sort of showdown. Might be an interesting challenge though!

More likely the DC would be invoked by the powers that be. Paranoia?

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

Anthony Todd — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 17:50:35 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] I will conduct my own defence.[/quote]

I would be totally at your side.

BUT because "Big Pharma" are involved, and this would be an important test case, justice and evidence might be manipulated, if there's enough money and effort put into it, which there would be....

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 13:47:13 GMT

[quote user="Eamon McAllister"]I'm happy to pledge £100 to the MADF if he ever gets his collar felt.[/quote]Why thank you Eamon. But I will conduct my own defence. I suspect that as soon as I point out to the judge that NHS doctors are told they must prescribe a generic even when a licenced alternative is available and that the licenced veterinary drugs are just re-branded generics with no original research behind them, the prosecution's case will fall apart.

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

Eamon McAllister — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 13:36:30 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]but I will continue to use generics and defend my right to do so to the last court in the land over back door licenced version of generics in the same strength/formulation.[/quote]

I agree with you, but it is breaking the law.

What we should do, maybe, is lobby our MP's for a change in the law, and/or bring about a test case in court - where are the RCVS/BVA/BSAVA when you need them to do something useful?

[/quote] I'm happy to pledge £100 to the MADF if he ever gets his collar felt.

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

mariette asselbergs — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 13:20:36 GMT

[quote user="Eamon McAllister"]

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

However when it leads to drug companies licensing drugs where vets have been using human generics previously and then pricing their drug markedly higher it is a bad thing.

[/quote] It's a really bad thing when drug companies are licensing human generics and passing them off as licensed products so that we are forced to use them and charge hugely inflated prices for them.

[/quote]

Same with the so-called "Badger bcg vaccine" which is just bottled human BCG vaccine, pennies on the worldmarket, £20 a dose for badgers!

Mariette

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

Bob Russell — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 12:21:55 GMT

The VMD is funded to a large extent by the pharmaceutical industry. Initially we had Steve Dean very aggressively pushing cascade and threatening beheading of any culprits that failed to follow the rules to the letter.

A combination of VMD inspections and the Practice Standards Scheme ensure ongoing monitoring of veterinary behaviour but at least the threats have quietened down.

I would like cascade to be downgraded for companion animals in a way that allows us to use judgement with consent as we do with off licensed medicines.

Forget the MP and MEP's. I wrote to both when this started. The MP passed everything over to the MEP who completely ignored all of us. Not even a reply.

Money talks and vets don't have enough! As veterinary pharmaceutical companies get split from their wealthier human counterparts they get hungry for income. It may be that they are just not large enough to exist on their own without fleecing the pet owning public.

Perhaps they should move back to be a small offshoot of a bigger company where they can benefit from the crumbs dropped from the human plate!

Much as I would like to see things change as we leave the EU, I bet nothing will happen!

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

Clive Ansell — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 10:16:45 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]Socialism in action,pointless stupid meddling in someone else's business by people who's main motivation is green eyed envy, creating a loose loose situation for vets and clients. [/quote]

More an example of extreme capitalism I would have thought?

Massive corporations making vast amounts of cash on the back of poorly drafted and dubious legislation, which AFAIK has not yet been tested in court, that allows them to licence generic drugs that have been used safely for decades to make a quick buck.

Incidentally, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown are not socialists.

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

Clive Ansell — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 10:08:46 GMT

I agree with you, but it is breaking the law.

What we should do, maybe, is lobby our MP's for a change in the law, and/or bring about a test case in court - where are the RCVS/BVA/BSAVA when you need them to do something useful?

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

Eamon McAllister — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 09:31:44 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

The origin of the cascade had nothing at all to do with animal welfare. The EU wanted to make sure that foods of animal origin didn't contain drug residues, and some loon worded the regulations to apply to all animals.

Wynne

[/quote] "Some loon" suggests that it was an error or oversight but I suspect that those who tweaked the regulations were "influenced" by professional lobbyists who in turn were bought and paid by the pharmaceutical companies.

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

Bob Russell — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 09:18:57 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]In what degree, even tiny, is "the cascade" justified?[/quote]

Those lovely helpdesk vets when you're looking for advise on their product

Neil

[/quote]

Close control of medicine use in food producing species is the main (perhaps only important) benefit IMO.

Clomicalm is 10x the price of the human version so equine prednisolone is a long way behind!!

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 09:09:22 GMT

I don't have an issue using drugs which have a distinct advantage over generics, Amodip is a prime example in that is in much more usable sizes for our target species than generic amlodipine (not withstanding Summit already did a special) but I will continue to use generics and defend my right to do so to the last court in the land over back door licenced version of generics in the same strength/formulation.

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

Wren — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 08:44:37 GMT

I'd like to nominate Equisolon - prednisolone powder licensed for horses. When it first came out I did the maths and I think it was 2.5x the cost of 5mg pred tablets.

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 08:29:15 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

I'm sure the drug companies are well aware of what human meds we use and are currently getting the easiest/biggest market sellers licensed. Whatever became of the veterinary tramadol?

[/quote]

I guess they'd have to prove that it worked first

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 08:06:40 GMT

Wynne

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

Rob Loxley — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 01:25:29 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]

[quote user="robloxley"]Particularly I looked recently at Sulfatrim in place of Septrin for rabbits and they've not even licensed it for treating bacterial infections, just coccidiosis (no doubt to save money!)[/quote]

But then you can use septrin as the other product isn't licensed for what you're presumably wanting to use septrin for, no?

[/quote]

No, since use "for a different condition in the same species" comes above "a medicine authorised in the UK for human use" on the Cascade. I.e. just get it tested and licensed for the simplest, minor use, and then people have to use it for everything.

Likewise get your amlodipine licensed in cats and its use comes above human amlodipine for dogs - so if you were wanting to use amlodipine in a dog you have to pay the extra for the cat drug without benefiting from any of the much-touted research/testing/support.

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

James Laidlaw — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 00:33:52 GMT

But then you can use septrin as the other product isn't licensed for what you're presumably wanting to use septrin for, no?

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

Rob Loxley — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 00:26:57 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]What's your bet for the next thing to be licensed and price hiked?[/quote]

I'm sure the drug companies are well aware of what human meds we use and are currently getting the easiest/biggest market sellers licensed. Whatever became of the veterinary tramadol?

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

grumpyoldman — Tue, 02 Aug 2016 23:16:49 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]but I can't imagine that for one second he had any direct input into VMD policy making -[/quote]

Possibly so but at the time the prevailing ethos was anti professionals and pro stifling over regulation and they did think they could legislate for everything without thinking how it would work on the ground.

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

Virginia Campbell — Tue, 02 Aug 2016 21:34:48 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Shall we have a competition to find the biggest pi** take?[/quote]

I nominate Libromide. They didn't bother making it small, or easily splittable, or liver flavoured, just churned out tubs of a simple salt in big white pill form and slapped a big price tag on.

What's your bet for the next thing to be licensed and price hiked? I'm backing potassium chloride vials.

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

Glenn Hodgson — Tue, 02 Aug 2016 20:32:22 GMT

Euthanased a lovely cooker last month. He was stable for a year with DCM and addisons. Transition off flucortisone did not go well at all.

His time was due I suspect, did well for a year with both diseases. Can't help but think that if the price of flucortisone Had not skyrocketed, he may have lived for longer. Humpf

RE: Cascade and taking the p++s!

Rob Loxley — Tue, 02 Aug 2016 19:28:47 GMT

The cascade works when it makes commercial sense for a Dechra to bring DOCP to the UK market for Addison's; or novel molecules with good quality new supporting research (e.g. pimobendan) are brought to the market for animals

That drug companies make abuse of the system by getting licenses for long established human medications (metronidazole, amlodipine, spironolactone etc.) is not in the benefit of our patients. Particularly I looked recently at Sulfatrim in place of Septrin for rabbits and they've not even licensed it for treating bacterial infections, just coccidiosis (no doubt to save money!)