CPD: Are we sleep walking again!

RE: CPD: Are we sleep walking again!

Gerry Henry — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 19:03:41 GMT

May I respectfully suggest that if you don't have time to comply with regulations on CPD that there is something wrong with your working practices and you are actually too busy for whatever reason to do your job properly.

Fixing sick and broken animals is my job, ticking boxes isn't, reflecting on why, how, when and in what manner the boxes were ticked, how did I feel after the boxes were ticked and on reflection would I tick the boxes any other way - isn't.

RE: CPD: Are we sleep walking again!

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 18:53:48 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]You seem to spend an awful lot of time posting on this forum, perhaps you are quieter than some of us, perhaps you have the time for additional RCVS BS, I don't - and I'm not doing it.[/quote]May I respectfully suggest that if you don't have time to comply with regulations on CPD that there is something wrong with your working practices and you are actually too busy for whatever reason to do your job properly.

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]You might consider reflecting on why you are so bitter about almost everything.[/quote]Pots and kettles come to mind here. And yes I have already reflected on why I'm so bitter and already stated it in a previous posts for all to see. In reality I am a ease with myself and place in life it just pisses me off seeing others fouling it up be it Brexit or resenting their obligations on CPD or whatever.

RE: CPD: Are we sleep walking again!

Gerry Henry — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 18:36:14 GMT

@Martin Atkinson

The sooner compulsory and tested CPD and clinical audits with disciplinary action for consistent poor standards are introduced the better. Something like OFSTED (OFSVET maybe!) for vets would be a brilliant idea. The day I don't think that is the day i should retire. I'm pissed off to my back teeth of vets around here taking money for a substandard service and/or overcharging for unnecessary treatment.

You seem to spend an awful lot of time posting on this forum, perhaps you are quieter than some of us, perhaps you have the time for additional RCVS BS, I don't - and I'm not doing it. CPD get fitted in when there's time, I do what is required, usually a bit more, I have no intention of reflecting, emoting or participating in any other form of emotional incontinence to satisfy the ambitions of some tired little box ticker in Horseshit Road. You might consider reflecting on why you are so bitter about almost everything.

RE: CPD: Are we sleep walking again!

Anthony Todd — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 18:23:32 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]The sooner compulsory and tested CPD and clinical audits with disciplinary action for consistent poor standards are introduced the better. Something like OFSTED (OFSVET maybe!) for vets would be a brilliant idea. The day I don't think that is the day i should retire. I'm pissed off to my back teeth of vets around here taking money for a substandard service and/or overcharging for unnecessary treatment.[/quote]

Jeeper again, my thoughts exactly! [Senility= agreeing with my, sort of colleague ,Martin A]

But it's the unnecessary tests "in case there's something else" the dog has diarrhoea FFS and it's ruined the Iranian carpet....It hasn't got anything else FFS. Just stop the diarrhoea!!

BUT just because you do many tests [now number of tests ordered equals diagnostic ability, acumen, and any other positive adjective as well] doesn't mean you are a great vet, it just means you haven't many clues,nor common sense.

I blame the unis for teaching, not that 99% of conditions will be the common things but that 98.9% of presentations are the really rare and need all sorts of tests and then a referral to a "specialist" who will obviously, and usually, repeat the same tests!

As my GP said this morning [I'm OK and thanks for asking] if it goes "clip clop, it's almost certainly a horse, rather than a Zebra, particularly as you are in leafy Surrey. We don't need to record the"clip-clop" and then send the recording to a "specialist" or do any hearing tests either.

RE: CPD: Are we sleep walking again!

Robin Grimmer — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 17:35:35 GMT

Martin - given your commendable approach to CPD and keeping up to date, don't you think it's about time you got an ultrasound machine? Pretty standard piece of kit nowadays .

RE: CPD: Are we sleep walking again!

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 17:19:21 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"] Many of us went to courses and conferences and never went to a paper, but got a scroll for the skite wall....!! Some just skied.....[/quote]Well don't include me among your number Anthony, but thanks you've just about given the prosecution its trump hand to rest its case!

I attend every last second of the lectures on overseas conferences, indeed every conference I've ever attended and always add to the content by offering my experience and asking questions. I may be the pain in the ass on the front row stopping you from leaving on time but at least I'm not the one falling asleep at the back because I spent too much time in the bar.

RE: CPD: Are we sleep walking again!

Anthony Todd — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 16:44:32 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Not only should CPD be compulsory, recorded, reflected on and tested so should a clinical audit. It makes my blood boil that some vets resent this. What the f*** do you have to hide.[/quote]

Jeepers, what brought that on? I'm with you except that CPD attendance should contain a test. as Mariette says too.

Many of us went to courses and conferences and never went to a paper, but got a scroll for the skite wall....!! Some just skied.....

RE: CPD: Are we sleep walking again!

mariette asselbergs — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 16:32:20 GMT

I have done the survey on this new CPD system and I have a lot of the same reservations as Shams Mir.

My partner is a doctor and the way doctors work this in reality ios: do CPD that comes up during the year, and looks interesting/is at the right time/is authorised. Then at the end of the year make up the so-called plan which they were supposed to have at the beginning of the year, to fit with the cpd they did.

As so often in this over-regulated country: make up something that looks beautiful and useful on paper, and then let the users work their way around it. Everybody happy.

Except that I think this is again a system based upon imprinting (young) vets with how bad they are and all the stuff they don't know. Every year again, you are never good enough! Bad for stress levels.

Also it is very narrow mindedly focused on increasing some skills that are useful for your employer but will not broaden your base for your further career which may well be oputside the practice you now work in.

And it denies following your interest in the parts of your veterinary education which you founfd interesting but will never work in, like the basic sciences, new developments in immunology, biotechnology, oncology, the history and ethics of our profession, the links with medical sciences, the role of vet [practices/farming in environmental problems, etc etc. all that makes us well rounded vets in a society.

And all this reflecting, it is just fashion. If I reflect on what I do as cpd, then it is related to my more than 40 years of being a vet in so many different roles and circumstances. Do I need to share that with others? My reflections are meaningless to others without knowing where I come from. Unless I decide to write a book about it, they are of no use to others, let alone to others who wish to control if I do proper cpd.

So I think it is a silly system.

If they believe that people sleep through cpd lectures, or switch on the webinar and go to the pub, why not simply make it a requirement that all cpd providers must close their lectures with a test? That would be useful and I would support that.

Mariette

RE: CPD: Are we sleep walking again!

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 16:31:49 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Can't just be money; might be that the dinovet fixed the animal and Medivet did tests.[/quote]Sorry Anthony, Dinovet didn't fix anything he just charmed and bullshitted naive clients into thinking he did. I picked up the pieces enough times in the past to know when some clients saw the light.

The whole point is the clients trust us because they know no better, although with the 'interweb' that is changing. They depend on us to be honest and competent. Not only should CPD be compulsory, recorded, reflected on and tested so should a clinical audit. It makes my blood boil that some vets resent this. What the f*** do you have to hide.

RE: CPD: Are we sleep walking again!

Anthony Todd — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 16:25:03 GMT

Um, Mariette, I was responding to the message from Martin above mine in this thread and to the one above from Richard Carter

A bit off "CPD" but sort of relevant, you know dinovets and steroid abuse as usual, and I didn't start it for once.

RE: CPD: Are we sleep walking again!

mariette asselbergs — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 16:18:26 GMT

Anthony you are in a rut again on the wrong topic. This is about new CPD requirements!

Mariette

RE: CPD: Are we sleep walking again!

Anthony Todd — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 15:21:32 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I've had an endless stream of clients jumping ship from a local Medivet which took over from the Dinovet[/quote]

So the Dinovet did no tests and did no real diagnostics and treatment and they went to him for yonks....pets must have got better or died I suppose. Medivet vets did all the real veterinary diagnostics and treatment but they leave, I'm sure they didn't die....

Can't just be money; might be that the dinovet fixed the animal and Medivet did tests.

The art is marrying the two approaches and using common sense.

[watch the thread on the female 6yo boxer and see where that ends up....]

"The problem is that 'the consumer' doesn't have a clue about how up to date vets are."

Makes no difference to the client provided the animal gets better!

Why do you think homeopathy still has such a following?

Because many things get better with time alone but homeopaths have the "art" of making that a science.......

RE: CPD: Are we sleep walking again!

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 15:09:49 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"] Almost every town now has multiple practices so the consumer choice is there.[/quote]The problem is that 'the consumer' doesn't have a clue about how up to date vets are. The majority assume as we have the same qualification we're all as competent as each other. We all know that this is not the case. I've had an endless stream of clients jumping ship from a local Medivet which took over from the Dinovet who worked there before. They don't have faith because the new young vets aren't prepared to fix everything with a dose of steroids and they're being charged for some real veterinary diagnostics and treatment. They're a bit shocked when I tell them that they are actually better off there now than they were with Mr T. Rex.

RE: CPD: Are we sleep walking again!

Richard Carter — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 14:30:16 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]it's the others who really aren't up to speed[/quote]

I know everyone has a scare story of someone so far out of touch with modern veterinary medicine but the actual numbers are probably very small. Most people do a very good job of keeping up to date, even if it is just to keep up with the competition. Almost every town now has multiple practices so the consumer choice is there.

So who are we really talking about here? The experienced vet who knows how to successfully remove a f/b, repair a diaphragmatic hernia and can manage a reasonable fracture repair on limited funds or the ever increasing number of vets who from fear or inexperience or lack of confidence won't even look at something more complicated than a skin scrape and even then send that in to a lab for someone else to actually make the diagnosis. Put in a lateral suture for CCL - not a chance. More CPD won't change avoiding taking on the responsibility for a more complicated patient.

Don't know what the answer to this dumbing down of veterinary practice - but I suspect increasing the CPD requirements because the medics do it this way, probably isn't required

RE: CPD: Are we sleep walking again!

Anthony Todd — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 00:07:01 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"] I enjoy doing CPD[/quote]

It's not you they should aim at, it's the others who really aren't up to speed.

They've got to test those, not measure you.

RE: CPD: Are we sleep walking again!

Anthony Todd — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 00:01:21 GMT

[quote user="Shams Mir"]So, are we going to abandon a system, where vets and nurses do and record their CPD honestly without the coercion of a bureaucratic dictate; or, create a system that merely adds a mountain of fictional CPD paperwork?[/quote]

I went to loads of conferences and events that would qualify as CPD. Did I learn much or did I spend the time on the jolly that it was wrapped in?

It's the few vets who don't keep up that are the problem and need monitoring.

Can you teach an old dog new tricks just by showing it the new trick?

RE: CPD: Are we sleep walking again!

Robin Grimmer — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 23:53:50 GMT

^this is all very well in larger practices where there is the possibility of appraisal and discussing everyone's CPD. But what about all the solo practicioners and locum vets such as myself that don't have this luxury? I don't plan my CPD every year other than booking the London Vet Show. I don't know what lectures there will be a year in advance, I just assume they will be relevant and of a high standard. And you can bet I'll do all the free webinars I can get my hands on. As others have said, I enjoy doing CPD. Will this no longer be good enough for the RCVS?

RE: CPD: Are we sleep walking again!

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 23:41:27 GMT

Our employed (younger) vets have appraisals. In that we will talk about career development and every year so far have identified needs for CPD that have always been fulfilled. If one of our assistants needed to spend more than the usual time (or budget) on CPD and it was in their interest and the practices then the time and money would be found. This should go without saying.

I can only speak for myself and our practice but the older and more experienced I get the better I am at identifying areas of my practice where I need CPD and want to know more. At the same rate that CPD can get harder to find as we become more specialised in our work. Not all CPD is readily available, sometimes on obscure topics (looking for something in depth on mycoplasma in sheep if anyone knows of any...). The more the younger vets do the more they approach me and ask if they can do something (either that they have seen or want to know more about).

How can any of that be a bad thing? Appraisals with the goal being ongoing professional development.

All CPD is then discussed in a practice meeting so the team can learn, and changes can be made to what we do (where required). This is the reflection. It gets better value for the practice and drives changes. We take brief notes. It's far more effective than it ever used to be.

I personally believe that a structured development with appraisals is vital for younger vets. You don't hear of doctors being housemen (or whatever the term is now) for their career just muddling through. Why should that work for vets. I expect many will do further study and qualifications. From a personal standpoint it is fulfilling and professionally satisfying. It makes you a better vet - isn't that what we all want?

I think with your union hat on you should be getting firmly behind the proposals, and hope the fusty old cohort get dragged along or retire. Sleeping off a hangover in the back row of a conference does not = professional development.