Export certification

RE: Export certification

Alan Tevendale — Fri, 08 Jul 2016 12:58:26 GMT

Unfortunately as is so often the case with APHA we often find that you can get conflicting answers from different people. It has improved since all exports were taken on by Carlisle but there can still be problems. I always make sure I get the name of who I've spoken to and ask them to email details of what has been agreed.

RE: Export certification

Sophie Aylett — Fri, 08 Jul 2016 11:14:38 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I was doing a cheese export once and there was a clause on there that could not be resolved. I spent 2 days (not full time) making calls and speaking to different people. In the end Carlisle were happy me simply crossing it out before I signed the certificate.[/quote]

I have had a similar issue and when I suggested to Carlisle that I cross out the offending words, they told me it invalidated the whole certificate! Tough position for the OP

RE: Export certification

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 08 Jul 2016 11:08:02 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]The root issue is that old favourite: Choose one of the following and delete the rest. Its a mixed load of groceries and therefore impossible to choose one method of heat treatment when all apply.[/quote]

Speculating, but if you got the exporter to separate the items in the schedule (assuming you write 'see attached schedule' and staple it on the back) into the type of heat treatment, I can't see that you couldn't assign 'group 1' items to canning and 'group 2' items to UHT.

I was doing a cheese export once and there was a clause on there that could not be resolved. I spent 2 days (not full time) making calls and speaking to different people. In the end Carlisle were happy me simply crossing it out before I signed the certificate.

RE: Export certification

An On MRCVS — Fri, 08 Jul 2016 09:54:11 GMT

I was also concerned that APHA have been issuing certificates that are questionable - they replied that it is the responsibility of the OV to check the information on the certificate and report it. They also said that they just issue the certificate to the customer on the phone, its not their (APHA) problem if the certificate is wrong. When I suggested that this certificate should be pulled from circulation, or at least APHA should tell people phoning for this certificate that there is an issue, I was told that its not my problem, and certainly not APHA's problem.

It concerns products not live animals, so no welfare issue fortunately.

The root issue is that old favourite: Choose one of the following and delete the rest. Its a mixed load of groceries and therefore impossible to choose one method of heat treatment when all apply.

I don't know the other OV involved.

I had hoped that APHA would be as vigilant in monitoring these certificates as they were when they picked me up, but that seems not to be the case.....

The value of these loads is thousands of pounds - I don't blame my client seeking another OV to continue the export but I did warn all of my clients that there is a significant risk of the exports being rejected at some point.

I guess I am frustrated with APHA that they were quite so unhelpful, and a little peeved that another OV is able to continue using a certificate I know is wrong.

With regards to unverifiable parts of the certificates, I tend to get the client to write a letter on headed paper each time to cover all areas of due diligence, sale in the UK, hygiene etc etc as well as making every attempt myself to see Halal certificates, visit the slaughterhouses/production sites.

Thanks everyone, not decided what to do but feel better for airing the issue.

RE: Export certification

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 08 Jul 2016 09:04:45 GMT

Go back to 1st principles, and the oath you swore when you graduated. That (to me ) sacred oath ( My constant endevour will be to ensure the wellfare of animals entrusred to my care.)

If the other veterinary surgeon is imperiling the welfare of an animal by signing this certificate, then report to RCVS.

If not, relax and don't bother. If he/she ends up struck off, it's not your prob.

Wynne

RE: Export certification

David Shepherd — Fri, 08 Jul 2016 09:01:12 GMT

If you know who the other OV is it might be courteous to give them a call to alert them of the problem you have noticed. Otherwise it's APHA's problem. There are often ambiguities in export forms, and it is sometimes necessary to make a judgement call; that's what you are being paid for as OV. I don't think reporting anyone is necessary or helpful.

David

RE: Export certification

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 08 Jul 2016 08:54:34 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"] My question is: do I report the client to APHA because they are using a certificate I know to be false? Is it sour grapes because they are no longer my client?[/quote]It would be helpful to know what kind of export it is. There is a big difference between a single pet travelling to Europe and herd of cattle going into the food chain. Common sense may prevail over the first.

Also it is not clear if a) the APHA have declared the certificate is incorrect and therefore cannot issue any more until the problem is corrected; b) you know the other OV has knowingly falsely completed the certificate; or c) you simply answered an ambiguous question erroneously which another OV could correct.

If I would say if it is a) it is for AHPA to monitor, b) you should report this other OV, c) swallow your pride. AFAIA and I only do small animal certificates, another OV can complete the paperwork other than the one it was addressed to as long as AHPA have been notified.

RE: Export certification

Alan Tevendale — Fri, 08 Jul 2016 08:09:32 GMT

Aren't EHCs always issued to a named vet by APHA. Therefore if APHA know that there is an issue with a particular certificate they shouldn't be issuing it. There are only a few individuals dealing with each particular export type at Carlisle so I'm sure they should have already picked up the issue.

RE: Export certification

Rob Loxley — Fri, 08 Jul 2016 00:02:01 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

APHA agreed the certificate was a concern and have started the process of updating it.

I alerted my clients to the fact that I had made an error, and that this certificate and therefore this type of export would not be able to continue until APHA had changed the certificate.

[/quote]

I don't understand how, if APHA agree the certificate is wrong they are still issuing it to other vets??

RE: Export certification

Charlotte Marshall — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 23:14:06 GMT

Exactly my thought !

RE: Export certification

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:30:38 GMT

I quite agree with Iain, but, um, won't APHA pick up the error on the other OV's certificate soon enough?

RE: Export certification

Emily Rainbow — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 22:08:58 GMT

Ditto Michael. We would also be interested to know as we do a bit of export work (various types).

RE: Export certification

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 21:45:43 GMT

As you are Anon can you give us some more specifics, please?

The problem comes when we need to sign some paperwork and certain parts are basically unverifiable. How the hell can I prove in court that that particular batch of cheese was made with pasteurised milk or that all precautions have been taken to prevent contamination.

The interpretation from DEFRA on the supporting guidance generally seems more pragmatic than the certificate is often worded.

We do quite a bit of export paperwork and I would like to know if I am dropping myself into a trap without realising. By private message if you prefer.

(we've not taken over any recent export work so I can't be the person the OP is talking about!)

RE: Export certification

Iain Richards — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 21:37:42 GMT

Not a good place to be. Are you with VDS - start there. If not, then give the other OV the heads up about the incorrect certificate. Judge your next step on their response. We have a duty to our colleagues, but not at the expense of a) disease control b) welfare c) duty to the integrity of the profession. Good luck