Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

Anthony Todd — Sat, 11 Jun 2016 19:40:03 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"]If you were busier do you still think it would work as well?[/quote]

Well it dd for me and so much busier modvets wouldn't cope; 2 C/S in a morning, gimme a break. MJV would do them, and anything else between consults

But we've been here again and again! No point really.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

David Mills — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 19:59:01 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"]

This is quite extraordinary - and you dig your own cesspit as you write these words.

I cannot, in all conscience respond in any way as I feel as it would be deemed inflammatory, despising those opinions.

[/quote]

Plea to emotion and obviousness - "Cesspit" "despising" "soul" - hardly rejoinders of reasoned debate.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

George Cooper — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 19:51:37 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]In my practice it is reality and I don't even have a qualified nurse at present just two very able, intelligent girls who are capable of independent thought. We don't even differentiate between ourselves to show this,[/quote]

I'm pleased for you, I really am, and it works for you. It is an exception. If you were busier do you still think it would work as well?

Companies of a certain size (and indeed most tiny companies as well) can only usually function effectively with clearly defined roles and structures in place, strong leadership, and whilst there is scope to incorporate different opinions, these have to be judged on merit, origin and background. To have everthing up for discussion in a multi-vet practice, from student to receptionist is barmy and actually devalues the knowledge and experience of vets and nurses. Chaos.

[quote user="George Cooper"]use the term mini-vet in derogatory ways [/quote]

Oh, can it be used in a positive way?

[quote user="George Cooper"]that result in the loss of gifted VNs over the years[/quote]

Really? You have something to back up this fact, I assume, or is it opinion presented as fact? I see VNs leaving because of poor pay or poor deployment as receptionists, cleaners, and other ways. They have a skill set which in a lot of cases is poorly utilised, leading to job dissatisfaction. The lazy assumption here is that I am saying their opinion doesn't matter. I'm not. I'm saying that straying over into veterinary surgery or medicine in direct contradiction of the veterinary surgeon (often juggling unseen factors) except in extremis is a recipe for chaos, disharmony, and avoidable strife. Some do this, and it needs closing down early on. Again, boundaries.

[quote user="George Cooper"]No wonder that they get pissed off and walk. [/quote]

You're entitled to your opinion, but how many nurses leaving the profession have you asked about this?

[/quote]

This is quite extraordinary - and you dig your own cesspit as you write these words.

I cannot, in all conscience respond in any way as I feel as it would be deemed inflammatory, despising those opinions. I implore you, DM, to reflect and to search your veterinary soul. Me? - enough. For now.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 19:33:28 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]However, I retain my belief that the remark was arrogant even if directed at veterinary surgeons in general.[/quote]

What, this?

[quote user="svn"]but I am that RVN that always nudges you to place an IV, give fluids, pain relief etc...[/quote]

I just didn't read it as written arrogantly. Subjective, of course. Actually, I thought some of the comments earlier up the thread were sailing closer to the wind that than one!

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]Arlo, it is your ball and it is your game but the dissemination of insults and offence by individuals hiding behind anonymity seems, to me at least, to be an abuse.[/quote]

There's a small but important difference between the Anon account, which really is anonymous, and someone choosing not to display their name in the forum (but nevertheless registered as a member, and therefore I know who they are).

In this case, I saw an RVN who clearly feels passionately about her profession and about what she'd seen elsewhere. Now she may have jumped in with all the tact of a rhinoceros, but I thought exactly like George:

[quote user="George Cooper"]I actually feel we should cut the OP a bit of slack here, despite the intemperate language and method of expression.[/quote]

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

David Mills — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 19:24:05 GMT

I'm pleased for you, I really am, and it works for you. It is an exception. If you were busier do you still think it would work as well?

[quote user="George Cooper"]use the term mini-vet in derogatory ways [/quote]

Oh, can it be used in a positive way?

[quote user="George Cooper"]that result in the loss of gifted VNs over the years[/quote]

[quote user="George Cooper"]No wonder that they get pissed off and walk. [/quote]

You're entitled to your opinion, but how many nurses leaving the profession have you asked about this?

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

George Cooper — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 19:06:12 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="David Mills"]Suggestions can be useful, but I draw the line at criticism - implied or direct - challenging, or unrealistic expectations. Some nurses can be forthright, which needs nipping in the bud early else it can destroy teams and morale.[/quote]OMG and you accuse others of being arrogant. I think I'm perfect but even I don't believe I'm above criticism. Forthrightness is a quality I value and encourage in my nurses and that is the trainees not just VN's. They're often able to think outside the box when you can't see the gorilla on the stage. Unrealistic expectations can be managed but you lose a valuable resource if you think you are unimpeachable. Many lives could have been lost in battle if generals hadn't been so blinkered. You are the one destroying team moral if you shoot them down in flames because you don't like being criticised.

[/quote]

Martin I am with you on this - I think the arrogance lies with DM, and it is attitudes like his (and others who use the term mini-vet in derogatory ways that result in the loss of gifted VNs over the years. No wonder that they get pissed off and walk. Vis can be the most valuable members of any team and can on occasions save the VS from the red face scenario.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 18:58:31 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]Reading Gillian Mostyn's posts over the years, I have seen no evidence that she might ever need, or benefit from, being "nudged".[/quote]

Uh - svn never said that she was giving Gillian a 'nudge'.

and I think these:

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]Is arrogance a recognised personality disorder?[/quote]

[/quote]

I have re-read the exchange that led me to writing that and it still seems to me that svn is addressing Gillian in both posts - the one before Gillian's in which she names GM and the immediately following one in which she doesn't name GM but which appears to be a continuation of the same "conversation". Happy to be corrected if there has been a failure of clear expression. However, I retain my belief that the remark was arrogant even if directed at veterinary surgeons in general. If directed, as it seems to me, at GM then it was arrogant and rude.

Arlo, it is your ball and it is your game but the dissemination of insults and offence by individuals hiding behind anonymity seems, to me at least, to be an abuse.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 18:53:08 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]Would you accept that the nursing profession in this time has moved on quite a bit? [/quote]Yes.

[quote user="David Mills"]This is to the benefit of the nursing profession, and veterinary practice more widely. However, it can - and does - blur the lines in some cases between vets and nurses. [/quote]And it gives nurses more knowledge to judge if a vet is performing professionally and adequately.

[quote user="David Mills"]And you'll also accept, presumably, that your concept of a team is somewhat different to larger practices? In larger teams, leadership and boundaries are important. Hierachies, if you will. [/quote]I accept this can occur but IMO it is detrimental and I would discourage it.

[quote user="David Mills"]This isn't to say that opinions are not valid or lesser,[/quote]It's pretty well what you are saying.

[quote user="David Mills"]But to pretend that mini-vetism doesn't exist, or is to be encouraged, is to misunderstand the dynamics of a team, and can lead to anarchy and breakdown to the detriment of all. [/quote]If managed correctly it can be to the benefit of all.

[quote user="David Mills"]To think in some strange post-modernist conception of veterinary medicine where everything is up for discussion regardless of qualification, experience, or perspective is bizarre.[/quote]In my practice it is reality and I don't even have a qualified nurse at present just two very able, intelligent girls who are capable of independent thought. We don't even differentiate between ourselves to show this, we all wear the same corporate polo shirt except they have a choice of a dress in the summer - I'm no Grayson Perry so it wouldn't suit me!

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

David Mills — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 18:29:15 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I worked in 5 practices in the first 18 months. First was a 6 week locum where I got on well because even as a raw graduate I was asked for my opinion; second I was fired after 6 months because I dared to question their way of working; third I walked out of after a month because it was so unprofessional; fourth fired me after 6 months because I dared to question their way of working; fifth I got on well but it was only a stop-gap for 3 months; sixth I stayed for 4 years and guess what: the boss actually liked the way I conducted myself and worked and the other staff, even the trainee nurses were allowed to have an opinion. I bought the branch practice from him and the rest is history as they say. We stayed friends until he died. Anthony (T) knows who I'm talking about, he worked there too.[/quote]

So, single-handed practitioner in for the last 30 years. Would you accept that the nursing profession in this time has moved on quite a bit? Degrees, more structured courses, greater knowledge required. This is to the benefit of the nursing profession, and veterinary practice more widely. However, it can - and does - blur the lines in some cases between vets and nurses. This can spill over into overstepping the mark.

And you'll also accept, presumably, that your concept of a team is somewhat different to larger practices? In larger teams, leadership and boundaries are important. Hierachies, if you will. This isn't to say that opinions are not valid or lesser, it's just to outline the limited information and considerations these can be based upon. In some cases these opinions, whilst well-intentioned, will be based on a narrower perspective. Such is the case in this thread, with the OP, who, by others, has had things explained with a huge degree of patience. But to pretend that mini-vetism doesn't exist, or is to be encouraged, is to misunderstand the dynamics of a team, and can lead to anarchy and breakdown to the detriment of all. To think in some strange post-modernist conception of veterinary medicine where everything is up for discussion regardless of qualification, experience, or perspective is bizarre.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 18:02:01 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] 6 before I had enough of large practice politics and set off on my own.[/quote]

35 years ago? And didn't you set off on your own after a year or so? Come come, don't be shy.

[/quote]I worked in 5 practices in the first 18 months. First was a 6 week locum where I got on well because even as a raw graduate I was asked for my opinion; second I was fired after 6 months because I dared to question their way of working; third I walked out of after a month because it was so unprofessional; fourth fired me after 6 months because I dared to question their way of working; fifth I got on well but it was only a stop-gap for 3 months; sixth I stayed for 4 years and guess what: the boss actually liked the way I conducted myself and worked and the other staff, even the trainee nurses were allowed to have an opinion. I bought the branch practice from him and the rest is history as they say. We stayed friends until he died. Anthony (T) knows who I'm talking about, he worked there too.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

David Mills — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 17:33:30 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] 6 before I had enough of large practice politics and set off on my own.[/quote]

35 years ago? And didn't you set off on your own after a year or so? Come come, don't be shy.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 17:27:02 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]And how many of these have you experienced in your 50 years of single-handed practice?[/quote]Actually its only 35 and the answer is 6 before I had enough of large practice politics and set off on my own.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

David Mills — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 17:23:59 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]In a bigger practice cliques tend to form and can exclude those whose behaviour is unacceptable to them. [/quote]

And how many of these have you experienced in your 50 years of single-handed practice?

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 17:20:01 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]If you were to apply your theory to a larger practice it would be chaos.[/quote]Oh contraire. The moral of a small team is dependent on everyone getting on together. In a bigger practice cliques tend to form and can exclude those whose behaviour is unacceptable to them.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

David Mills — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 16:52:56 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I think I'm perfect but even I don't believe I'm above criticism.[/quote]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Many lives could have been lost in battle if generals hadn't been so blinkered.[/quote]

Logical fallacy.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Forthrightness is a quality I value and encourage in my nurses and that is the trainees not just VN's. [/quote]

Your choice. It's your business.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] You are the one destroying team moral if you shoot them down in flames because you don't like being criticised.[/quote]

You work in a single-man band with ?3 other people.You are the only vet. Hardly comparable to a staff of 50+ or most practices so your opinions on teamwork are naturally limited by experience. If you were to apply your theory to a larger practice it would be chaos. In mutli-vet practices it is often clinical discussions will highlight deficiencies in approach and alternatives.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 16:33:23 GMT

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

David Mills — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 16:20:05 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]she clearly has best of intentions. [/quote]

The road to hell is paved with them.

Unfortunately it is all too easy to focus on the minute whilst losing sight of the bigger picture. As the people responsible for cases, there are many things we have to take into consideration, and these may not be obvious. Hence the discord. Some nurses - and other lay staff - can view the job as easy, or the moral situation as black and white whilst being blissfully unaware of the background. It is fine and indeed encouragable to ask about aspects but unfortunately this can be uncommon, and prejudice/crusading leads to something like this thread. There are many suboptimal aspects of the job which can appear uncaring from the outside but are the best compromise from difficult situations.

Mini-vetism has creeped in more and more, especially I suspect in clinics understaffed and overworked. Suggestions can be useful, but I draw the line at criticism - implied or direct - challenging, or unrealistic expectations. Some nurses can be forthright, which needs nipping in the bud early else it can destroy teams and morale.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

Bob Russell — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 16:08:16 GMT

Just to balance things and show that VN's can have a sense of humour:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-36490552

Yummy!

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

Jo Dyer — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 09:38:27 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]some practices are charging difficult or insured clients extra under the guise of a consumables fee[/quote]

Obviously unacceptable, but hard to prove. As has been discussed, if you can justify your fee for that individual client and their animal, I don't think there is a case to answer.

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]it is cause for concern when nurses are laughing about their Bosses charging 'dickhead' fees![/quote]

This is a major concern. Individual practices should have 'social media' policies and posting material like this would certainly be contrary to such a policy and would therefore put their employment at risk if they were found out. It also, in theory, risks bringing the profession into disrepute. However, everyone knows there is a massive amount of rubbish posted on social media and generally people have forgotten about it by the next day.

[quote user="svn"]I suffer from a personality disorder which means that I often lack tact and struggle to be eloquent[/quote]

Thank you for explaining, you didn't have to but it helps and I sympathise.

[quote user="svn"]sometimes I wish I just didn't care so much! I AM sorry for my inflammatory comments, but I am that RVN that always nudges you to place an IV, give fluids, pain relief etc...[/quote]

Try not to care too much about things you really cannot change....easier said than done, I know By the way I love having proactive nurses to give me the occasional prod when I have developed tunnel vision on a case.

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]Is arrogance a recognised personality disorder?

[/quote][quote user="David Mills"]I'm not sure but mini-vet syndrome is, I think.[/quote]

Be nice, boys!

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 09:31:59 GMT

[quote user="svn"]

Gillian, I feel that I am being a bad ambassador for RVNs on here, I suffer from a personality disorder which means that I often lack tact and struggle to be eloquent, I think the best thing I can do is to step away, and just hope that the discussion surrounding my concerns continues

[/quote]Who doesn't suffer from a personality disorder, what is a normal personality? I could list a few of mine: arrogant, narcissistic, control freak, impatient, intolerant, psychopathic, perfectionist, misanthropic, solopsist, self-centred, .....I could go on. These are many of the personality traits that are necessary to be successful in life. On the other hand I am kind, generous and loyal and follow Voltaire's mantra: 'I may not agree with what you're saying but I would fight to the last breath in my body to defend your right to say it'.

If I quit when I upset everyone else I would be long gone. You have shown the first of your positive attributes - contrition. We need all alternative points of view especially from non-vets on here. You are the sort of person I would value as an employee. Just be brave enough to identify yourself.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

Robin Grimmer — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 09:31:24 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]Is arrogance a recognised personality disorder?[/quote]

I'm not sure but mini-vet syndrome is, I think.

[/quote]

Like I said earlier - massive chip on the shoulder.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 09:30:07 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]Reading Gillian Mostyn's posts over the years, I have seen no evidence that she might ever need, or benefit from, being "nudged".[/quote]

Uh - svn never said that she was giving Gillian a 'nudge'.

and I think these:

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]Is arrogance a recognised personality disorder?[/quote]

[quote user="David Mills"]I'm not sure but mini-vet syndrome is, I think.[/quote]

do not recognise that whilst svn may not have expressed herself especially tactfully, she clearly has best of intentions.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

David Mills — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 08:51:10 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]Is arrogance a recognised personality disorder?[/quote]

I'm not sure but mini-vet syndrome is, I think.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 08:44:53 GMT

[quote user="svn"]but I am that RVN that always nudges you to place an IV, give fluids, pain relief etc...[/quote]

Reading Gillian Mostyn's posts over the years, I have seen no evidence that she might ever need, or benefit from, being "nudged".

Is arrogance a recognised personality disorder?

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter FB page

svn — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 23:12:54 GMT

Urrgh sometimes I wish I just didn't care so much! Some colleagues, RVNs, Vets, just do as they are told - I wish I was like that too! Didn't worry about charging 'dickhead' fees, just scrolled past FB posts that set alarm bells ringing, I AM sorry for my inflammatory comments, but I am that RVN that always nudges you to place an IV, give fluids, pain relief etc...