Is the RCVS really here to help?

RE: Is the RCVS really here to help?

Anthony Todd — Fri, 03 Jun 2016 23:32:03 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]I thought you were pro-Brexit [/quote]

With the EU we have the choice......

RE: Is the RCVS really here to help?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 03 Jun 2016 18:33:43 GMT

There's some things that can't be fixed

Wynne

RE: Is the RCVS really here to help?

Francisco Gomez — Fri, 03 Jun 2016 18:27:35 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

You can't fix it by moaning from the outside.

[/quote]

I thought you were pro-Brexit

RE: Is the RCVS really here to help?

Anthony Todd — Fri, 03 Jun 2016 17:24:43 GMT

[quote user="Bradley Viner"] we recently came 23rd in the country in the Best Place to Work Awards medium sized organisation category[/quote]

Yeah but, looking from the outside in, as a "consumer", where are you?

There should be a "Trip Advisor" for professional bodies...... see where you'd be then.''''

RE: Is the RCVS really here to help?

Anthony Todd — Fri, 03 Jun 2016 17:17:42 GMT

Just skimming this thread and wondering why some of the more vocal yet sensible senior members of the profession yet again, and again, don't put themselves forward for the RC council.

You can't fix it by moaning from the outside.

vetsurgeon.org is a sort of written Question Time and the ideal place for RC councillors to come from

RE: Is the RCVS really here to help?

Bob Russell — Fri, 03 Jun 2016 16:42:50 GMT

Not heard of many of the companies:

http://www.greatplacetowork.co.uk/best-workplaces/best-workplaces-in-the-uk

Is the RCVS actually paying for the pleasure of being assessed? Sounds like a pay to enter competition where everyone's a winner!

Clearly not an independent and open competition so not much to brag about. Should perhaps be keeping quiet about wasting our money entering a beauty pageant?

How much did it cost?

Edit: Large companies include McDonald's at number 2, Pets at Home at number 7, KFC at 31!

At least I now know where to get my next job! Mc D here I come!

RE: Is the RCVS really here to help?

grumpyoldman — Fri, 03 Jun 2016 16:24:17 GMT

[quote user="Bradley Viner"]we recently came 23rd in the country in the Best Place to Work Awards medium sized organisation category. [/quote]

Sorry ,Just had to chuckle , he will be showing us his 25m pool length swimming certificate next .Who was 24th? out of interest ? and who won? how many in the category ? and who was last ?

Its a bit like saying we have a nice house ,because well we have and its nicer than some other peoples houses . CVS and Vetsnow must be medium sized employers ? did they enter ? where did they come ? did they do better than the RCVS ?.

RE: Is the RCVS really here to help?

J G Wray — Fri, 03 Jun 2016 12:50:04 GMT

[quote user="Bradley Viner"] However, in general it is dangerous to assume that a forum such as this is private, because in a legal sense it isn't. Therefore anything that is posted should bear that in mind. [/quote]

Quite

RE: Is the RCVS really here to help?

Bradley Viner — Fri, 03 Jun 2016 12:25:26 GMT

An interesting discussion. IMHO the RCVS exists to make veterinary practice into a profession: we have a contract with society that says that if we act co-operatively to maintain and advance professional standards, society will grant us a virtual monopoly on the diagnosis and disease of animals - that is seen to be best for the overall benefit of animal welfare.

Therefore there are lots of things we do as a modern regulator, despite working under a piece of legislation that is 50 years old. For example, Lizzie Lockett who was mentioned earlier is our Director of Communications but also runs the Mind Matters campaign, to which the RCVS has committed £1m of funding over five years. We also run the practice standards scheme, maintain standards of undergraduate education, run the PDP, regulate veterinary nursing, are trailing Alternative Dispute Resolution, relaunching the Fellowship as a learned society, running the CertAVP, and advanced practitioner statuses, to mention just a few things. We have spearheaded the VetFutures project with the BVA to look over the horizon at what the profession is likely to be facing so that we can at least try to become masters of our own destiny where appropriate, or at least prepare ourselves as best as we can to face up to a rapidly changing landscape.

The RCVS is a vibrant and healthy organisation - we recently came 23rd in the country in the Best Place to Work Awards medium sized organisation category. There is no crisis of governance, although we are currently working with DEFRA to effect a change to the VSA and reduce the size of Council, bring on Associate members (currently RVN's) as of right and lay representation to make us more efficient. We don't do everything perfectly - just as when working in practice we have to recognise we are all human, but we do constantly strive to do better.

And finally we don't lurk online to try and catch out vets. I participate in this forum and one or two others because they interest me. However, in general it is dangerous to assume that a forum such as this is private, because in a legal sense it isn't. Therefore anything that is posted should bear that in mind. That is nothing specifically to do with the RCVS, but generally with social media, and something that we have to adjust to in the modern world.

So is the RCVS here to help? IMHO it permits us to call ourselves a profession, and to me that is one of the most important things in my life. It sometimes has to take disciplinary action to maintain standards, but tries to do that as humanely as possible, but much prefers to help advance standards of veterinary practice whenever possible. I think that makes it a resounding YES, although the cynics would say that they would expect me to say that.

RE: Is the RCVS really here to help?

J G Wray — Fri, 03 Jun 2016 11:58:01 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Well, my impression as a man off the street and a dog owner is NOTHING but positive. Very positive. [/quote]

The profession earned the reported levels of trust and fairness, not RCVS. It is baffling for RCVS, because they interact with the profession at times of personal crisis, through the Helpline and through times of professional crisis for complaint/disciplinary issues. That is what they know. They struggle to have some kind of perspective - see the Registrar and President Smith's responses to Dr Dyer's petition. We see this crassness.

RE: Is the RCVS really here to help?

Bob Russell — Fri, 03 Jun 2016 11:34:51 GMT

I approve of any changes that reduce defensiveness, improve open discussion of mistakes and errors in a manner that educates and reduces the risk of recurrence.

VDS do this in a roundabout way through their regular newsletter!

It is always going to be a complex task, balancing regulation with support but the whole point of self-regulation is to have experienced peers reviewing the actions of those reported to have stepped over the line.

Generally the cases reaching the DC seem to be handled in a perfectly acceptable manner (now!).

Perhaps the biggest disconnect is the inability to regulate the many veterinary practices under corporate ownership. The potential pressures on practising vets, especially the less experienced, must be formidable.

Not sure I would favour phoning Prof Con. On the few occasions I have dealt with them, I have rarely received a straight answer!

RE: Is the RCVS really here to help?

Francisco Gomez — Fri, 03 Jun 2016 11:23:02 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Bradley Viner"]

Excellent advice Dagmar. The Vet Helpline number is 0303 040 2551. We all make mistakes and sometimes the consequences are worse than others. You didn't do it intentionally and so long as you deal with it honestly it is not professional misconduct. Do phone the helpline and talk it through, speak to VDS if you are a members, and you can also phone the professional conduct department at the RCVS for advice.

Good luck

Bradley

[/quote]

There was also a comment about a sort of discussion in Council about creating an environment where professional fault is readily admitted in order to permit resolution, learning and progress for the individual and profession. I nearly lost a rib reading this. [/quote]

I don't know enough about this, but Bradley's comment looked genuinely as someone who is being sympathetic with the original Anon comment - There's quite a bit in this forum about the RCVS 'disconnect' with the profession, but How can they 'reconnect' if we turn our back at the first sign of truce? Saying that, I'd agree your first action after realising a mistake has been made, it is with the professinal body who's being paid to help you - hopefully in this case, VDS.

RE: Is the RCVS really here to help?

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 03 Jun 2016 11:00:51 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]That sounds (to me) like you're suggesting the RCVS is actively reviewing this forum looking out for people writing 'bad things' in order to take some action against them. We've been around for 8 years now, and in that time I've never seen any evidence that this is the case. I think 'it is monitored by the RCVS' creates a misleading impression; it would be truer to say that members of the RCVS are members of VetSurgeon in their own right, for individual reasons. e.g. Lizzie in Comms drops in from time to time to see if anyone has posted something she can help with. [/quote]

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]Are there instances of College people reading Vetsurgeon, forming an impression and then using that against the author? In my experience, yes.[/quote]

Well there is still the raw memory of the instance in March when I posted under the title 'Big brother is watching' on what was shown/discussed by a member of the DC at a conference. The proverbial hit the fan over that and recriminations followed even though it should have been little more than a storm in a teacup, and I still don't honestly know whether this was the result of deliberate surveillance or an innocent remark unfortunately picked up by a third party.

However the person involves is a thoroughly decent chap and never gave the impression in his presentation that the RCVS was doing anything other than to help the innocent. Indeed always the modus operendi is to offer support and only then at worst to refer to the DC to apply sanctions if appropriate but not to be punitive.

RE: Is the RCVS really here to help?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 03 Jun 2016 10:59:23 GMT

When I was a new grad, I was so absolutely paralysed with fright when talking to those 1 step above me on the ladder, that I became defensive.............which didn't make for a good learning curve.

On the other hand, RCVS is a regulator, so must avoid any suspicion of favouritism, and an "Old Pals Act" brushing under the carpet. It's a difficult balancing act.

Wynne

RE: Is the RCVS really here to help?

Bob Russell — Fri, 03 Jun 2016 10:34:51 GMT

Always, always, always let VDS do your talking!

The Royal College may try to be helpful but they are not there to take care of vets. they have made that perfectly clear. They should be but are not!

Cared for vets make a caring profession IMO. Defensive vets make bad decisions!

RE: Is the RCVS really here to help?

Malcolm Ness — Fri, 03 Jun 2016 09:33:54 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] We've been around for 8 years now, and in that time I've never seen any evidence that this is the case.[/quote]

Is there active surveillance? No.

Are there instances of College people reading Vetsurgeon, forming an impression and then using that against the author? In my experience, yes.

There are lots of hard working, well-intentioned folk in RCVS. That includes most of the councillors and almost all of the employees. However, all is not rosy. Currently, things on the upper floors of the College are shambolic. The Registrar is away tending his garden; the acting registrar retains her responsibilities as head of professional conduct - two big roles, either of which would be more than enough for one person - so it is hard to see that either job can be done effectively despite what I know will be the very best efforts of the individual involved. Governance recently, in my experience, has been poor: as is often the case in organisations dependant upon individuals "doing good" there is a tendency for some of these people to get ideas way above their station - they get the "power vs duty" thing a bit out of balance and have a tendency, as they say in Newcastle," to go off on one".

I believe that Dr Viner's advice was well intentioned but I would suggest that vets recognise that the regulator is just that. They aren't there to be your best buddy. Be careful, be very careful, when dealing with the College, and let VDS do your talking.

RE: Is the RCVS really here to help?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 03 Jun 2016 09:14:53 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Then there's the point about this list. It is monitored by RCVS and not just the President.[/quote]

That sounds (to me) like you're suggesting the RCVS is actively reviewing this forum looking out for people writing 'bad things' in order to take some action against them. We've been around for 8 years now, and in that time I've never seen any evidence that this is the case. I think 'it is monitored by the RCVS' creates a misleading impression; it would be truer to say that members of the RCVS are members of VetSurgeon in their own right, for individual reasons. e.g. Lizzie in Comms drops in from time to time to see if anyone has posted something she can help with.

[quote user="J G Wray"]Non-vets are reading this stuff.[/quote] For clarity (and I know you know this), membership registrations are reviewed and only approved if they appear to be from a veterinary surgeon or someone closely allied to the profession (eg a supplier). Of course that does include some non-vets. But I wouldn't want anyone to think this is as open as your words imply.

[quote user="J G Wray"]They don't know GPvets and practice, so what kind of impression do you think they form when contributors openly discuss their failings, the cases which have not gone well[/quote]

Well, my impression as a man off the street and a dog owner is NOTHING but positive. Very positive. Everyone knows that in any walk of life, accidents and mistakes happen. To be able to discuss those mistakes openly, so that others can learn from them, is a very good thing.

In aviation, accident reports in which every detail is forensically analysed are available to the public. People have died in these accidents. Do these reports or discussion of them weaken my faith in pilots? On the contrary, they strengthen it. Massively.

Context is all important too. It's very easy thing to say 'vets care'. Posts about failure almost always show how profoundly vets really DO care, far more vividly than just those two words.

In fact, when I hear or read about some pet owner grumbling about something or other, I sometimes wish they COULD read some of these posts.