I've f***ed up and feel awful

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

Anthony Todd — Sat, 09 Jul 2016 16:26:09 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]This from a pilots' thread [pprune]:[/quote]

http://www.thirdamendment.com/WrongWay.pdf

It's too long a list to paste in it's entirety; should be titled "Wrong One"

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

Sandra Milburn — Sat, 09 Jul 2016 12:08:34 GMT

Hi Anon

Thanks for giving us a quick update. Like so many others, I have been following this thread closely and have been hoping that you are better and that life is getting easier. I have been in a similar position to you in many ways. It did help me at the time to post on here (anonymously as well) before and get support and advice. It may not help directly, but knowing you are not alone is a good start.

Re. leaving the profession/ clinical work - I have been there as well. It took me a long time to be able to make the jump (and it was an unsettled time with it's own ups and downs) and for me it was totally worth it and an excellent decision.

I may not be able to give you any concrete advice, but am more than happy to share what worked/ didn't work for me and what I learnt along the way (i.e. mistakes to avoid :) )

Please feel free to pm me directly if you think that would be helpful.

All the very best wishes to you in the meantime and allow yourself to breathe, relax and be happy.

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

Iain Richards — Sat, 09 Jul 2016 11:01:46 GMT

Good to hear you are ok Anon. While I think you should share this with colleagues, I don't think this list is the right place, given there can be some judgemental posts.

To recap a couple of lectures at the Lancaster Final Year seminar, it is vital that you look what you did, not who you are. There are strategies and tehniques you can adopt (and I don't mean adopting a yoga positions and chanting) to help you through this problem and the others that will come your way. I'm happy to talk directly, if that would help.

Iain

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 09 Jul 2016 09:04:51 GMT

An On Glad you're OK. Share the details if and when you feel ready for it.

Wynne

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 09 Jul 2016 08:57:06 GMT

Hi Anon - I'm involved with a facebook group called Not One More Vet - PM me if you want more details; it's an international group of vets who are there to support each other. You're not required to share anything, but it can be very therapeutic to see other people going through the same stuff you are.

Good luck!
Mark

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

Tedders — Sat, 09 Jul 2016 08:52:59 GMT

Anon I am very sorry to hear you are still feeling so bad about this. From my own experience, all the successes, clients who love you and years of good work count for absolutely nothing when you are feeling sick and guilty (and worried about consequences) over a mistake. However, it will pass. You must forgive yourself, you didn't mean that dog any harm and the fact of the matter is, by doing this job in the first place, we have to accept exposure to this horrible situation. I hope you will take comfort from the fact that everyone here understands how you are feeling and has definitely experienced it themselves. You WILL get over this and enjoy the job again, a mistake doesn't make your whole career a failure.

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

Anthony Todd — Fri, 08 Jul 2016 14:40:37 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"] I find it very difficult to think about it and sharing it in a forum, even anonymously, is a step too far for me at the moment. [/quote]

I will guarantee you will feel miles better if you give us all the details.

As well as the sympathy and understanding from everyone on here you'll help all of us 'cos, if we haven't, we could still make the same "mistake" as you may have done.

There isn't one of us on here that hasn't made errors or mistakes and almost certainly their mistakes will be as bad, cringeworthy, illogical, unforegiveable and probably more serious than yours.

Help others as well as yourself!!

You are anonymous, remember.

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

An On MRCVS — Fri, 08 Jul 2016 12:05:40 GMT

Anon here. I am okay, thank you for your ongoing concern.

I am sorry that I have not provided details of the case. I find it very difficult to think about it and sharing it in a forum, even anonymously, is a step too far for me at the moment.

I don't know why, because it's not my first mistake or anything, but this case seems to have broken me. I want so much to leave the profession but I cannot think of anything else I can do. There's still the mortgage to pay, at the end of the day. I suppose in time it will pass but I'm not feeling the love for my job at the moment.

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

Bob Russell — Fri, 08 Jul 2016 11:11:26 GMT

I hate to admit that I did not even think the prostate could be mistaken for a testicle! This element of the thread will get me to think that moment longer before applying that clamp!

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

Dagmar Steele — Fri, 08 Jul 2016 11:08:34 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

Absolutely. The time has come for us to know what mistake was made. We're all empathetic and some of us have admitted to cock ups of equal or greater proportion. If the OP wants continued support it is time to have the courage to stand up and tell us what happened. No-one is going to judge her. We may all benefit from that knowledge.

[/quote]

Come on Martin, leave them alone. Whilst I agree it would be helpful in the regard you pointed out they don't have to tell us so we give continuous support. Sometimes people just can't and sometimes they don't want to, which both is fair enough. Not everybody has the same personality, it might not be a problem for you and me, but it may well be for them. I'd like to hear how the OP is coping though.

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 08 Jul 2016 10:48:55 GMT

[quote user="vetbl.locum"]While professional sympathy is nice , it does not assist in understanding of the threats & errors in Practice[/quote]Absolutely. The time has come for us to know what mistake was made. We're all empathetic and some of us have admitted to cock ups of equal or greater proportion. If the OP wants continued support it is time to have the courage to stand up and tell us what happened. No-one is going to judge her. We may all benefit from that knowledge.

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 08 Jul 2016 08:54:49 GMT

An On Tell us you're OK. Please please tell us you're OK. You obviously really really care................ that means you're one of those our profession can't afford to do without.

When I was a new grad, I went totally off someone who was 1 step above me - because he/she was obviously delighted at having been a clever-clogs and had diagnosed a very rare (but incurable) condition. I was disgusted, and thought that that veterinary surgeon ( despite the cleverness) was a disgrace to the profesion. Someone who could actually be pleased that an animal was going to die was (by my reckoning ) totally beyond the pale.

You care. You're not like that.

Just drop us a line.

Wynne

PS We know you're still feeling raw We don't need details. An -On OK will do

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

Simo — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 20:00:24 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]In both cases the nurse plucked up the courage to say 'are you sure?" [/quote]

Interesting that you put it in that context "plucked up courage".

My question is whether they should be trained that it's their job to say 'are you sure', not something they have to pluck up courage for.

[/quote]This is a notion that I'm trying to inculcate in the nurses I work with. I'm there to make the final decision and take full responsibility for it in the good or the bad. But I make clear that I wish they speak their mind every time they think they have a better or simply an alternative idea. It gives me the chance to check that I'm not blinded by tiredness, bias, lack of time and if nothing else one of us will learn something, more often than not both of us.

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

vetbl.locum — Wed, 06 Jul 2016 23:00:20 GMT

The aviation authorities used the tragic findings of Air France crash (out of Brazil) to promulgate fundamental safety advice

It was a reminder to all pilots of the correct technique and hopefully avoid losses in future

Rgds

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

vetbl.locum — Wed, 06 Jul 2016 22:53:52 GMT

Agreed

But if the OP could share their experience then the vet community may be able to use that info to avoid similar adverse outcomes

Not to judge them in any way

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Wed, 06 Jul 2016 22:46:45 GMT

[quote user="vetbl.locum"]

Anthony

'Yes but SO many accidents are because the co-pilot won't and/or dare not do just that! [Trident Staines...]'

There are a lot more recent examples so while Staines started CRM more has been done since

Vets are a long way behind on CRM or the newer TEM ( threat error management)

While professional sympathy is nice , it does not assist in understanding of the threats & errors in Practice

[/quote] I think sympathy and empathy does help because it encourages the individual to feel supported and willing to share their mistakes without feeling they are going to be pilloried by their colleagues. The original poster may not feel ready to share details yet and perhaps has been advised not to say anything to anyone at all . It would be good to hear that they are coping ok as Hannah said before.

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

vetbl.locum — Wed, 06 Jul 2016 22:35:21 GMT

Anthony

'Yes but SO many accidents are because the co-pilot won't and/or dare not do just that! [Trident Staines...]'

There are a lot more recent examples so while Staines started CRM more has been done since

Vets are a long way behind on CRM or the newer TEM ( threat error management)

While professional sympathy is nice , it does not assist in understanding of the threats & errors in Practice

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 06 Jul 2016 07:56:40 GMT

An On Get in touch again - just to let us know how you are. We're all concerned about you.

Wynne

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

vetbl.locum — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 22:58:19 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]If these guys and gals admit to it why can't we?[/quote]

Did OP ever say what their error was?

Why withhold this information?

I have seen or done enough c@#k @$s so guess would not be all that shocked

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

Tedders — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 21:27:24 GMT

I didn't reply during the original discussion as the thread was 2 weeks old when I logged in but could totally sympathise with the horrible sick feelings of the OP as in 20 years of practice I have made mistakes too and like so many other posters can pretty much remember them all, well certainly the worst ones! I often wish I could be in a job where I didn't have to feel bad or anxious about things constantly. I really hope the OP is feeling ok now and can have a bit of a sense of perspective on what happened and why and if there is any comfort to be had, it's that something was learned from it and also that her obvious distress would surely have helped the clients with their grief. The thread itself and all the replies have been hugely helpful to me (not least in bringing to my attention the possibility of removing the prostate by accident!) and I'm certain countless others many of whom will not necessarily have contributed to it so if the OP is still reading, thank you for starting it.

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

Anthony Todd — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 18:45:26 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]As previously stated I think a few prostates might rest easier in cryptorchid dogs thanks to this discussion and a no blame anonymous reporting thread would be very valuable. [/quote]

This from a pilots' thread [pprune]:

Although I point out the obvious failures, we should look at the reasons for them. Never assume you are immune from making the same mistake.
Although Capt A had nearly 5000 total time only 250 odd was on this particular type!

If these guys and gals admit to it why can't we?

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

Manuel De Miguel — Tue, 05 Jul 2016 14:50:48 GMT

HI there

I was practicing 16 years surgery. Only who make surgery can make mistakes, the others can not.we are humans, not machines, and we always try ours best...i never liked to operated alone..to do a best work you need almost one assistance, which are intimate link in the work relate,, so 4 hands and 4 eyes always are more secure than 2.

One thing is make a mistake, that always can happen,and there are the insurances, and more when you are alone, another is negligence..that I believe is not your case.

Don't fleet so guilty, this is the difficulties that we face in our profession.

I am sure you will do right. All the best.

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

Jill Butterworth — Mon, 04 Jul 2016 16:06:12 GMT

Any vet who has 20 years experience and says they have never made a fatal mistake is lying. We've all done it at some point. The consequences depend on how the client deals with it emotionally and whether they make you feel even worse. You will get over it, but get help, and try to have a few days off work, get a locum or something Atul Gwande is really frank about the human medical side of this.'Doctors bury their mistakes'. Speak to the VDS and you will hear all about the other vets who have done the exact same thing. Read Paul McKenna and listen to his CD's for relaxation and how to get those intrusive thoughts out of your head. I've learned to compartmentalise mostly and have been able to 'forget' some truly horrible experiences. I read a quote from an Auschwitz survivor 'Man's ability to survive depends on his ability to forget'. Above all, learn from it, and tell the client you have changed protocol to reassure them. It is absolutely fine to cry as you tell the client you are sorry about what happened, and you know how much their pet meant to them. You will be ok, really, you will.xxx

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 16:44:16 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]I routinely use swabs in the abdomen during bitch spays to improve visualisation - I find them helpful to keep other structures out of the way[/quote]

Me too - especially for ovarian pedicles. I count them on the table, count them out after each ovary, and count em out before closing abdomen (usually after abdomen and before skin as well!) We have a pack of five, plus sometimes two more (diathermy electrodes and one around end of diathermy hand piece, which often falls off as the nurses unpack kit), so counts of 5, 6 or 7 are routine!

RE: I've f***ed up and feel awful

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 16:00:39 GMT

OK. Am really not looking for an argument with anyone.

Anon- glad you're seeing some light at end of your murky tunnel.