Why I don't like the P word

RE: Why I don't like the P word

Niall Taylor — Tue, 24 May 2016 18:44:54 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]... or Ian for that matter, why I get called Ian regularly I'll never understand...[/quote]

Yeah, me too - what's that all about? I get called it so often I've given up correcting people and just answer to it!

Niall/Ian

RE: Why I don't like the P word

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 24 May 2016 11:03:24 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Clearly you haven't read my two previous posts on this Neal[/quote]

But you are a 'special' case Martin

Now go away and write 100 times

That locum's name is Neil (not Neal or Nigel or Ian for that matter, why I get called Ian regularly I'll never understand)

RE: Why I don't like the P word

Bob Russell — Tue, 24 May 2016 10:23:55 GMT

The type of schools is far less important than the standard of leadership. Grammar schools tended to attract the best teachers and secondary modern, a combination of the poorer ones and the politically more "comprehensive" believers.

The boys went to the same school as daughter but the change in leadership between has been a disaster. The previous headteacher was out and about all the time, interacting with pupils and parents on a regular basis.

The more recent one locks herself in her comfortable new office and I have never seen her, despite the serious (Police involved) problems we have had.

At the same time the next school along (in quite a grim area) has changed from a glorified prison waiting room to a high flying, outstanding school!

I went to a groundbreaking school to take my A levels. Nearly everyone in the new sixth form had failed their 11+ but the best teachers were poached from existing schools. Out of a group nearly everyone went to university. A doctor, pharmacist, architect and a vet from a group of 10!

RE: Why I don't like the P word

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 24 May 2016 09:18:33 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

In the grammar school system, your dice is cast at 11. If you fail the exam you're condemned to a secondary modern school. You may have just missed the pass mark or been surpassed by an intensively coached child from a family who are desperate for that child to succeed regardless of academic prowess, that's unfair and relates directly to my opportunity point.

I particularly remember a late bloomer in the school. He 'came of age' at 14 having been in all the lower sets and he did really well. Under the grammar system he would have been sunk.

[/quote]Clearly you haven't read my two previous posts on this Neal:

"(I) failed 11 plus went to secondary modern school, managed to scrape into grammar school to do A levels, then got best grades in my year".

"...in (our area) of the London Borough of Hillingdon. The local comprehensive schools are all crap - there are no grammar schools but there are in Buckinghamshire and Berkshire. Mrs A being a teacher knew that nevertheless children are entitled to take an 11 plus examination which they duly did. One passed and went to Burnham Grammar School.

I frequently have work experience students who are being told by the local comp that they can't do triple science or whatever and I advise them of the above. Sadly, not many of their parents can be bothered to make the effort to take advantage".

RE: Why I don't like the P word

Aine Seavers — Tue, 24 May 2016 00:54:30 GMT

As long as the list was told by an Irish person, I would find it very funny-esp the Urine one-but not if told to me by a non Irish. And I get it here from the Aussies- so its a common enough theme- you have to draw a line and say when some one asks- Do you want to /have you heard the one...?'' and I go- you do know the Irish make up those jokes purely so that dumb folks in the rest of the world could understand them so I am hardly like to be told one'am I ?-at which point the person is smart enough to quit or they keep going in which case they have my pity as being such a poor dumb idiot and I let the punch line just hang and move on-boy do they squirm.

I am not against anon posts as a whole-someone having a personal breakdown, fearful etc should be able to post anon-but where we can put our name we should-and the folks who think of retelling an Irish joke or a polish, jewish etc- may suddenly remember that they know a Sarah or an Aine etc and they are not dumb and get offended and the teller comes across to them as a bigoted ejiit-maybe then less of this offensive stuff would persist. As long as we enable the negative behaviour-which is bad manners and rude-because we dont want to offend, we cant complain about how we are offended.

I am not plucky, just too lazy to laugh or applaud at something I dont find funny.

RE: Why I don't like the P word

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 23 May 2016 23:39:47 GMT

People pay to educate their children privately for 3 reasons:

1) better academic results

2) better discipline

3) the "soft skills" that come with greater self-confidence.

Grammar schools pushed pupils academically. They (typically) were half the size of comprehensives, so discipline was impoived as miscreants were less able to hide in the herd. Grammar schools gave the self-confidence that comes with proven success.

I knew of parents who sent all their children to state primary schools. Those who passed eleven plus went to the grammar school. A brother or sister who failed would be privately educated. The result was we tended to look down on all privately educated pupils, as we considered their schools took dunces who weren't good enough for ours!

Wynne

RE: Why I don't like the P word

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 23 May 2016 19:57:00 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Grammar schools told children "Regardless of your background, the fact that you're here means you have the ability to aim for the top"

Comprehensives simply don't give the same sense of achievement and superiority at the age of 11, which then creates a lifelong "can do" mentality.

[/quote]

A well run comprehensive beats a grammar school system hands down

In a large comprehensive you can stream for individual subject. Yes it was the 70/80's but there were 12 streams in our comprehensive and there was movement between.

I particularly remember a late bloomer in the school. He 'came of age' at 14 having been in all the lower sets and he did really well. Under the grammar system he would have been sunk.

Our children are at Academies (just a posh comprehensive) they are doing really well.

Neil

RE: Why I don't like the P word

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 23 May 2016 19:38:24 GMT

Actually yes. My year were the last to do O levels at the grammar school, and the 1st 6th form entry in the new comprehensive. None of the 1st and 2nd formers seemed to have the self-confidence we had at the same age - probably because they hadn't been given the same externally monitored proof of ability.

Wynne

RE: Why I don't like the P word

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 23 May 2016 19:28:42 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Grammar schools told children "Regardless of your background, the fact that you're here means you have the ability to aim for the top"

Comprehensives simply don't give the same sense of achievement and superiority at the age of 11, which then creates a lifelong "can do" mentality.

[/quote]

Were you at both?

RE: Why I don't like the P word

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 23 May 2016 15:54:11 GMT

Grammar schools told children "Regardless of your background, the fact that you're here means you have the ability to aim for the top"

Comprehensives simply don't give the same sense of achievement and superiority at the age of 11, which then creates a lifelong "can do" mentality.

My grammar school headmaster was a Cambridge graduate. His brother was dean of Edinburgh uni medical school. He told us all that his grandfather was an ordinary miner. His father went underground as soon as he was old enough, then studied at night school for mining engineering qualifications, and became a colliery manager, earning enough money to put both his sons through uni in pre-grant days. The message we were given was that our future depended on us. The message given in too many failing comprehensives is that nothing can be achieved by children from poor backgrounds, so, surprise surprise, nothing is achieved

Wynne

RE: Why I don't like the P word

An On MRCVS — Mon, 23 May 2016 13:53:57 GMT

[quote user="Aine Seavers"]

Geez-The real problem I have is that thread was started by anonymous post! Grow some ovaries and put your name to your words or don't write them. As a small, female, Irish vet who went through college in male dominated sexists Chavanist era and never backed away from a rapid rebuttal back and who worked in the UK where ner a word of discrimination was put/said to me or my Irish colleagues, even when lunatic cowards set off bombs in my country's name- which for ever earned the respect by me for the English tolerance, and for whom my Irishness has always opened doors and opportunity, it's time to put away the 'Beal Bocht, park the huge chip and thin skin somewhere 'and get on with enjoying the positives in life after correcting then forgetting the under-educated unfunny bigoted amadains that sometimes wander past our more than capable selves.

[/quote]

This is a different Anon. I am not ashamed of what I have to say but I do not want to have to deal with any backlash that might occur from certain colleagues who read this site. The OP is entitled to post Anon if he/she wishes. I agree with the OP. traveller can have a whiff of the anti-Irish about it, but can refer to any type of person including English 'Scroungers'. I have heard it used to describe that latter lots of times. But I have also heard it used to describe Irish travellers in a way that was meant to offend the non-traveller listener!

Aine, I have worked in the UK as well as other countries, but only in the former have I had to listen to barbed comments about my nationality. I don't think I should have to listen to that in work, but it does very very occasionally happen. Including when I was a student from some Leahurst staff 'The Irish don't know how to take care of horses, bla-de-bla....' That I thought was quite funny. What a load of utter rubbish!! But sadly, I have had the very occasional remark about dirty Irish, about being from a catholic country and general unwanted teasing about my nationality that I just don't want to have to listen to. Of course I do not generally respond, but it still pierces my confidence and I find it very depressing.

Aine, I am not as plucky as you, I admire you for it, but I think you should be more sympathetic to people who may not have the same plucky personality and have had to deal with negative racist remarks in work. We are not all like you. Some of you will say 'You are too sensitive...' 'Why don't you fight back...' but that is something that has to be judged at the time. Maybe humour can help, but it all depends on the particular situation. And seeing as you are so plucky, and I admire you for it, what do you think of this (posted some here some years back.....

Irish Medical Dictionary

The Irish have the lowest stress rate
because they do not take medical terminology seriously.
You are going to die anyway, so live life.

Medical Term		Irish Definition
Artery	-	The study of paintings
Bacteria	-	Back door to cafeteria
Barium	-	What doctors do when patients die
Benign	-	What you be, after you be eight
Caesarean Section	-	A neighbourhood in Rome
Cat scan	-	Searching for Kitty
Cauterize	-	Made eye contact with her
Colic	-	A sheep dog
Coma	-	A punctuation mark
Dilate	-	To live long
Enema	-	Not a friend
Fester	-	Quicker than someone else
Fibula	-	A small lie
Impotent	-	Distinguished, well known
Labour Pain	-	Getting hurt at work
Medical Staff	-	A Doctor's cane
Morbid	-	A higher offer
Nitrates	-	Rates of Pay for Working at Night, Normally more money than Days
Node	-	I knew it
Outpatient	-	A person who has fainted
Pelvis	-	Second cousin to Elvis
Post Operative	-	A letter carrier
Recovery Room	-	Place to do upholstery
Rectum	-	Nearly killed him
Secretion	-	Hiding something
Seizure	-	Roman Emperor
Tablet	-	A small table
Terminal Illness	-	Getting sick at the airport
Tumour	-	One plus one more
Urine	-	Opposite of you're out

RE: Why I don't like the P word

Gerry Henry — Mon, 23 May 2016 13:43:47 GMT

Ambition without good schooling isn't, usually, enough. Smart English and Northern Irish (can't speak for/don't know about the South) kept grammar schools, stupid Scots went 100% for comprehensives (abolishing assisted places on the way), some quite good, most meh, some awful. Good schools can turn the sows ear into a passable handbag, bad schools just hand it back to you after five years.

RE: Why I don't like the P word

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 23 May 2016 13:41:50 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]What posters on this thread who came from a less-privileged background (including myself)[/quote]

It's an interesting pattern isn't it and I'm being semi serious here

Either

We have the confidence to let our views be known and aren't afraid

We have no real friends

Neil

RE: Why I don't like the P word

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 23 May 2016 13:37:28 GMT

In my opinion, the financial status of the parents is pretty irrelevant. What posters on this thread who came from a less-privileged background (including myself) have in common is the confidence and self-esteem to feel that their dreams are attainable. This usually (but not exclusively) comes from your parents.

Some children aren't so lucky. They are 'trained' to think that they can't achieve anything, that people from a different background are to be hated, and that they're unable to change their life. I am not excusing poor behaviour, but unless someone, at some point, tells you that you're able to achieve - why would you think you could?

RE: Why I don't like the P word

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 23 May 2016 12:18:48 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]I am that child, Margaret Thatcher was the secretary of state for education at that time. I am the original benefactor of choice.[/quote]And my children have since benefited. When they were of school age we lived in the London Borough of Hillingdon. The local comprehensive schools are all crap - there are no grammar schools but there are in Buckinghamshire and Berkshire. Mrs A being a teacher knew that nevertheless children are entitled to take an 11 plus examination which they duly did. One passed and went to Burnham Grammar School. The other failed so was privately educated until she had done her GCSEs. At 6th form you are allowed freedom of choice of school so having good results she went through an admissions process and was admitted to Beaconsfield High School.

I frequently have work experience students who are being told by the local comp that they can't do triple science or whatever and I advise them of the above. Sadly, not many of their parents can be bothered to make the effort to take advantage.

RE: Why I don't like the P word

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 23 May 2016 11:42:59 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]For all those who are emphasising how an education elevated you from something to somewhere, I'd like to point out whose strapline used to be "Education, education, education.."[/quote]

I'm not sure what your point is here having read it.

The point I'm making is that bright children need the opportunity to succeed.

Here's a true story

Farmers son feeder school in the 1970's was the local village school. 60 pupils divided into 3 groups, in effect 6/7, 8/9, 10/11 year olds together. There was no choice of school, you had to go to that school.

Mother appreciates she has a couple of bright children on her hands, appeals to the local council to go to the big towns primary school where prospects are far better. Council says no it can't be done, there is no precident.

Mother appeals to Educational Secretary on the incumbent government, succeeds and children go to better school 6 miles away. Both go on to University and had fulfilling careers.

I am that child, Margaret Thatcher was the secretary of state for education at that time. I am the original benefactor of choice.

Neil

RE: Why I don't like the P word

J G Wray — Mon, 23 May 2016 10:31:12 GMT

For all those who are emphasising how an education elevated you from something to somewhere, I'd like to point out whose strapline used to be "Education, education, education.."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6564933.stm

RE: Why I don't like the P word

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 23 May 2016 10:14:57 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

Interesting that 3 of the 'noisy' ones on this forum came from 'similar circumstances' Does this say something?

Neil

[/quote]Add a fourth - possibly the noisiest of all. Working class background..check; failed 11 plus went to secondary modern school...check; had a mother who came from a similar background and was subjugated by my father until she discovered her worth later in life and trained to become a teacher who gave me my self esteem....check; managed to scrape into grammar school to do A levels, was told by my biology teacher (who just happened to want to be a vet but didn't get the grades) and careers master that I was wasting my time then got best grades in my year and became first person in my family, and from original school, to go to university..check.

Yes Neal I think your'e right. Maybe this is why I also rebel against rules and agendas set by others, especially those in positions of authority/power and have supreme self confidence in my decisions.

RE: Why I don't like the P word

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 23 May 2016 09:27:57 GMT

I think they're changing for the worse - no grammar schools, and crippling taxation stopping you from keeping the money you've worked for. Over-bratting wastes of space on more money than people who work.

Wynne

RE: Why I don't like the P word

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 22 May 2016 19:19:05 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] it's a far greater, more admirable achievement when someone from a less privileged background 'makes it' than someone who was given a head start.[/quote]

It is harder, yes. I've been there. 2100 children in the school. One Oxbridge student and handful went to top Universities.

It's an undeniable fact that schooling and background makes a difference, just listen to Andy Burnham talking today about expectations 'up north'

However things have/are changed/ing, which can only be for the better.

Neil

RE: Why I don't like the P word

Arlo Guthrie — Sun, 22 May 2016 18:31:08 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]Is it Arlo?[/quote]

You're right, wrong choice of word on my part. I didn't mean 'exceptional' as in 'the only one', just that:

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]There is no doubt that children from a middle classed background do have an advantage.[/quote]

and that

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]grumpy should be applauded[/quote]

In other words (if it's not stating the plainly obvious), it's a far greater, more admirable achievement when someone from a less privileged background 'makes it' than someone who was given a head start.

RE: Why I don't like the P word

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 22 May 2016 16:17:25 GMT

My mum had the brain to 'go upwards' but she was a woman, brought up by a catholic school, in a small town and in a dictatorship. 'Going upwards' was not only 'not an option' but something she would be shamed for.

RE: Why I don't like the P word

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 22 May 2016 16:12:33 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]

No , its bad people with an irish accent who live in caravans .

[/quote]

Whatever happen to be innocent until proven guilty: foundation of our Western criminal system.

That 'liberalism', if anything, permits going 'up the ladder' nowadays. Had not been for people pushing for those rights, many of us would have never left the bottom.

So yes, you make your own luck.. if they let you. Unfortunately many confuse that freedom with 'sit down and hope for things going your way'

RE: Why I don't like the P word

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 22 May 2016 15:15:38 GMT

Interesting that 3 of the 'noisy' ones on this forum came from 'similar circumstances' Does this say something?

Neil

RE: Why I don't like the P word

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 22 May 2016 15:02:10 GMT

Progression, both up and down the ladder is normal. My ancestral background is fairly varied. The Richards family used to be wealthy, but my great-grandfather, my grandfather, and my father were all downwardly mobile - 2 successive second sons (seriously bad idea) the finally death duties put the kibosh on things, so I was brought up on a small farm, and attended a state school. My great-great grandmothers family (Morris) were even wealthier, and a cousin of hers was a long time MP for Carmarthen Burroughs.

My father's mother was upwardly mobile. She was a farm worker's daughter, and met my grandfather when my great-grandmother hired her as a maid...............sorry you Catherine Cookson fans, I know that fictionally a romance between a maid and the master's son is supposed to end in tears, with the maid (literally) left holding the baby, but, in real life, he married her respectably in chapel > a year before the birth of the elder child.

Her brother was also upwardly mobile. He was in the army in the First World War, and was lucky enough to survive. He was in the transport co. so learned to drive a lorry. In 1918, the army were auctioning off surplus lorries, so one could be bought for peanuts. My great-uncle bought one, and started as a haulage contractor. He found he wasn't getting that much work, but people kept asking him for lifts, so he obtained a PSV(public service vehicle) license, swapped his lorry for a bus and started a bus service .............bus services were unregulated then, so if you wanted to start one, you could. He didn't look back.

My mother was upwardly mobile. Her father was a miner, so she and her 2 sisters could have stayed in Ammanford, and married miners. Instead, all 3 trained as nurses, because they saw nursing as a way of getting a professional qualification (SRN) whilst earning. One sister eventually married a medical consultant, and the other an accountant, so all 3 were upwardly mobile.

Both her parents were downwardly mobile, my grandfather the second son( it's really not a good idea) of a carpenter who owned his own business, and took my grandfather's elder brother into the business, but it wasn't big enough to absorb my grandfather as well. My grandmother was the daughter of a tenant farmer, so, again, downwardly mobile. Her father was upwardly mobile. His parents were a coachman and a maid (servants) He was also a coachman until a legacy from his father-in-law enabled him to take on the tenancy of a farm. My grandmothers brother was upwardly mobile, and became a dentist. My great-grandfathers brother was also upwardly mobile. He saved hard from leaving school until his mid 20s, when he had enough money to move to London, and start in business. His son was even more upwardly mobile, ended up a Conservative MP, and was knighted..........Sir Alfred Davies, MP for Lincoln from 1916 to 1922. So my grandmother was a miner's wife (working class), her brother was a dentist (middle class) and a cousin was a Conservative MP (upper class) I said my heritage was mixed!!!!!!!!!!!

That's how it is. Partly it's luck - position in the inheritance pecking order. Partly, it's hard work, and determination. The one constant in the family history is that it's not a good idea to be the spare not the heir!!!!!!!!!!!!

Six of us (grammar school) did the same A levels. I'm a veterinary surgeon, 4 are doctors, and 1 is a dentist. 3 of us were farmer's children, one the son of a primary school headmaster. 2 grew up in council houses, the father of 1 worked in the creamery, the father of the other was a shop assistant.

My 1st role model was Lady Edmund Davies. She had grown up in the same village as I was brought up in, and her father was a former headmaster of my primary school. She had gone on from that school to Llandeilo Grammar School (as I later did) then to do a chemistry degree at King's College London. Whilst at uni, she met a law student, who was a miner's son. married him, and 30 years later had a handle to her name, after her husband had become a law lord. Her less academic sister stayed in the village, married the shopkeeper's son, and 30 years later was serving groceries and stamps.

Also, google Sir John Meurig Thomas - retired chemistry professor at Cambridge - and a miner's son.

I do tend to laugh when I read that the curent generation of 20somethingd are the first who will be poorer than their parents. My family history is anything but a steady increase in prosperity with succeeding generations................more like a fairground roller-coaster!

I'm the first to go to university, but also the first (fathers fathers family) not to be privately educated, so am I upwardly or downwardly mobile?

Wynne