RSPCA doing nothing again?

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

Bob Russell — Thu, 26 May 2016 17:23:17 GMT

Have they removed the pre-recorded advice recommending fledglings be left alone? Used to be the first thing people heard when they phoned the RSPCA "helpline"!

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 26 May 2016 17:20:37 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]The RSPCA told them to take it to the nearest vet where I pointed to the large RSPCA poster on the wall advising to leave them alone (fledglings that is not the RSPCA - although it sounds like that's what they really mean sometimes)! I advised them to take it back whence it came ASAP and let its mother fend for it but the looks on their faces told me they thought I was judge, jury and executioner.[/quote]

I had exactly the same thing, only this time the advice was from the RSPCA shelter next door. The galling thing was when I went to tell them about it and their advice being wrong, there was one of those 'don't touch' posters staring at them from the wall opposite!!

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 26 May 2016 16:59:01 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I am happy to care for stray or injured pets and wildlife. I get annoyed when the general public don't realise that the bulk of this work is done, and paid for, by vets in private practice. I get even more annoyed when the RSPCA doesn't even acknowledge that fact.[/quote]A slight tangent on this as the nth fledgling bird was brought in yesterday. An uninjured magpie clearly just fledged from the nest, was in cover as they said it was near a fallen tree and the mother was nearby as the finder said it flew away when they approached. The RSPCA told them to take it to the nearest vet where I pointed to the large RSPCA poster on the wall advising to leave them alone (fledglings that is not the RSPCA - although it sounds like that's what they really mean sometimes)! I advised them to take it back whence it came ASAP and let its mother fend for it but the looks on their faces told me they thought I was judge, jury and executioner.

If the RSPCA telephone operators can't even give the advice to the public that their organisation states as policy, what hope is there?

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

Anthony Todd — Wed, 25 May 2016 05:43:23 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

If you're running a big organisation then outgoings need auditing. The NCC I believe was conceived so that iets and calls could be centralised. Partly this was because there were a number of dubious claims and partly because simply ringing inspectors yourself was like ringing an ambulanceman directly- chaos. This way jobs can be shared equally and geographically fairly.

I understand people's frustrations with the NCC but for an organisation as large as ours it's inevitable and good governance. Show me a bureaucratic operation that could not be improved.

As to other comments about the structure of the rspca, it's easy to criticise from the outside based on anecdote and the daily mail. It would be like me criticising your practice set up. Frankly, clueless.

[/quote]

Sorry David, and surprised! if this is the overriding ethos of the RSPCA then it is easy to see why we are commenting adversely.

[quote user="David Mills"] Show me a bureaucratic operation that could not be improved.[/quote]

So why doesn't it happen then?

Geez, I'm talking about 20 years ago and after, others talk about today.....

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

Bob Russell — Mon, 23 May 2016 14:16:57 GMT

I would suggest certain RSPCA employees do a 'mystery shopper' phone call. I suspect many would be shocked!

We have had strays refused treatment assistance because the client had arrived at the surgery. I am less fussed about this than I am getting stuck with a stray we cannot rehome!

One of my newer residents at home was sealed in a box for the bin men. The recommendation from the call centre was that the cat should be returned where it came from. It was unclear if they wanted the box re-sealed!

Another case we were told the inspector would collect a stray but after he/she did not turn up, gave up and took that one home!

We don't bother with the RSPCA any more. Not once have they helped in the last 5 or more years! I don't bother to support them now either. Shame because there are many very good people working for them.

We have a lot of cats at home!

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

Rob Loxley — Mon, 23 May 2016 13:42:45 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]We can only get a log number and consent if the member of the public calls them PRIOR to bringing the animal to the surgery. The priority for anyone finding an injured stray is usually to take it straight to the nearest veterinary practice, which is the most logical thing to do. We have to ask the owners to phone the RSPCA after they arrive and pretend they haven't taken the animal anywhere yet! And then they occasionally get directed elsewhere, when the animal needs immediate attention (which we have already provided by that time. Its juts a ridiculous farce sometimes[/quote]

Indeed - and along with the attitude of the call centre staff the RSPCA employ/contract - suggests that such hoops are just ways to avoid helping contribute to the care of such animals.
I'm sure many of the public who donate money to the RSPCA to care for strays/injured animals would be very surprised to hear the common problems that vets have in dealing with the RSPCA call centre over these cases.

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

Kate Richardson — Mon, 23 May 2016 09:16:29 GMT

David, with all due respect (and I have a lot of respect for your work, and value your contributions to this forum as you have a wealth of experience and knowledge that I personally have learnt from, so thank you), but I think you are missing the point.

I don't think any of us mind treating wildlife and absorb the costs. At our clinic we have a wonderful wildlife charity (Wiltshire Wildlife) who take on the wildlife if it doesn't require simple treatment or euthanasia. We never involve the RSPCA with these cases, this may be similar in other areas, I can't speak for them.

Regarding strays though, again, we are happy to provide immediate care, and welcome the contribution that the RSPCA provides, the amount is not the issue (in my opinion). The difficulty comes in obtaining approval and consent for this contribution. We can only get a log number and consent if the member of the public calls them PRIOR to bringing the animal to the surgery. The priority for anyone finding an injured stray is usually to take it straight to the nearest veterinary practice, which is the most logical thing to do. We have to ask the owners to phone the RSPCA after they arrive and pretend they haven't taken the animal anywhere yet! And then they occasionally get directed elsewhere, when the animal needs immediate attention (which we have already provided by that time. Its juts a ridiculous farce sometimes.

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

David Mills — Sun, 22 May 2016 21:57:56 GMT

[quote user="Alastair Welch"]

I think the medics call it anosognosia. You carry on with the agitprop: I'll avoid you like the plague, we'll get on famously!

[/quote]

Of course, why would you wish to participate in reasoned debate when it's easier to merrily moan away, RSPCA-bash, feel warmly morally superior, and restrict yourself to being a keyboard warrior?

Let me guess...a practice owner?

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

Alastair Welch — Sun, 22 May 2016 21:27:47 GMT

I think the medics call it anosognosia. You carry on with the agitprop: I'll avoid you like the plague, we'll get on famously!

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

David Mills — Sun, 22 May 2016 20:31:18 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]If you believe that private practices get sufficient support, both financial and with rehab, then you are sadly mistaken. The RSPCA makes it very difficult to do so.[/quote]

I was talking about the simple case of an injured stray being presented to your practice either by the RSPCA or a member of the public (MOP) on its behalf.

1. you would have to provide emergency treatment.

2. The RSPCA will pay something towards this treatment.

Now in scenario 1) you're out of pocket. You may still be in 2) but at least you're less out of pocket.

Regarding longer term treatment, that is upto the individual practice if they want to do it, and there are various arrangements with local branches with practices around the country if its likely to have a good outcome.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I get annoyed when the general public don't realise that the bulk of this work is done, and paid for, by vets in private practice. I get even more annoyed when the RSPCA doesn't even acknowledge that fact.[/quote]

That is your problem, in a way. If you want to treat strays then why not garner positive coverage for it? Why are you so angry at the RSPCA for using positive PR proclaiming the number of animals it collects and pays for? I simply don't understand this. If it bothers you that much then I would suggest a more pragmatic approach is required?

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]David Would you agree that no-one should criticise the NHS for it's top-heavy ratio of admin staff to actual doctors and nurses?[/quote]

Everybody is welcome to their opinion. We just need to be aware of from what experience and facts this opinion comes. I certainly wouldn't look at numbers of doctors vs management and conclude we need more doctors without knowing a lot more information about structure, governance, etc - and have the humility to recognise that there are probably a lot of people who know far more than I in that organisation and there are reasons for the status quo.

[quote user="Alastair Welch"]Like so many on the inside David is so convinced of his rectitude that it is impossible for him to even contemplate the contrary point of view. [/quote]

As with these posts, they tend to reveal more about the posters entrenched views. Please troll away.

[quote user="Alastair Welch"]A call from the RSPCA always involves some degree of hassle: if your lucky it turns in to a quick and loss making euthanasia, [/quote]

I am, and was, talking about companion animals who are presented via the RSPCA or members of the public for treatment, and merely pointing out that there is an arrangement in place whereby some of the cost can be claimed back.

I suspect through your underlying prejudice, you have managed to conflate this with going out to see horses and some pretty unpleasant criticisms of inspectors. Peculiar, but there you go. My point was when a stray is presented to your practice, you are obliged to deal with it. The RSPCA will provide some support, and in certain circumstances far more. Surely this is a better arrangement than nothing?

[quote user="Alastair Welch"]f your unlucky its hours of form filling, statement writing followed by months/years of will they/won't take some half-wit to court leading to days off work for you or your employees often culminating in some meaningless outcome.[/quote]

Golly, this really is in the realms of rant. All the above - filling forms, court dates, etc is claimable. Have you considered this?

[quote user="Alastair Welch"]making it more difficult for VS to recoup some of their costs is likely to improve relationships[/quote]

It may require some more work on your part, but I have explained why. For many years, unfortunately, there was a lot of p*ss taking by private vets charging the earth, so, as any sensible organisation would do with limited funds, it needed standardising. That's the way it is. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it has reduced costs considerably.

Years of unchallenged prejudice is no match for the truth it seems. C'est la via.

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

Alastair Welch — Sun, 22 May 2016 15:42:49 GMT

Like so many on the inside David is so convinced of his rectitude that it is impossible for him to even contemplate the contrary point of view.

When the phone goes and its the RSPCA 9 out of 10 vets in private practice sigh, attempt to look busy and hope that they can find some legitimate reason not to get involved. A call from the RSPCA always involves some degree of hassle: if your lucky it turns in to a quick and loss making euthanasia, if your unlucky its hours of form filling, statement writing followed by months/years of will they/won't take some half-wit to court leading to days off work for you or your employees often culminating in some meaningless outcome.

VS in successful practices are usually busy people for which the extra work is unwanted, those in unsuccessful practice do not need yet more non/poor payers to drag them down further. I have been fortunate that I have only had to get involved on a handful of occasions but for me (in horse practice) a typical call is for a lame 'semi-urban' pony. Generally this involves watching (helping if your really unlucky) the hapless inspector flap a head collar at the slightly 'limpy' (not so 'limpy' when you try and catch it) horse for an hour or so until you can make your excuses, get back in your car, try and catch up with the rest of your day to placate your paying clients for being late. Sometimes you arrive at the field only to discover that the pony has disappeared but nobody thought you important enough to inform.

David would do well to recognise that he is the outlier- there is not a large body of the profession itching to help him/clamouring get involved with the RSPCA. Judging by the distances we are asked to travel everyone seems to run the other way (who would blame them). Rather than get on his high horse David should perhaps ask himself why this is the case? Does he genuinely believe that making it more difficult for VS to recoup some of their costs is likely to improve relationships? It may be that David feels restrained by his pay-master and needs to toe the party line but by the sounds of things he has truly gone native.

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 22 May 2016 14:22:18 GMT

David Would you agree that no-one should criticise the NHS for it's top-heavy ratio of admin staff to actual doctors and nurses?

My criticism of the RSPCA is an exact parallel.

I don't mind treating genuine strays/injured wildlife FOC............ in fact, last weekend a member of the public brought in a very badly injured pigeon............the wound extended into the air sacs. The member of the public had contacted the RSPCA who had given her a number and told her to phone me. I saw the bird, and PTSed it, but didn't charge the RSPCA although the woman who brought it in had a number. Payment for treatment has never been a problem for me.

I couldn't do the Inspectors job - I doubt I'd last a morning before I'd be the one in court - on a murder charge because I'd throttled some low life. My criticism is there's nothing like enough Inspectors, especially as the police are totally useless, and won't even attempt to investigate crime against animals even though it's their legal responsibility to investigate ALL crime.

A measure of my support for the RSPCA is that I've re-homed a pony who was an ex prosecution case. I've cared for her for 20 years (say £3k per annum - total £60 k ) despite the fact that due to her previous injuries it has never been possible to ride her.

I will continue to support the RSPCA as things would be much much worse for animals if they didn't exist, but, since I contribute to them, I reserve the right to criticise if I think they mis-spend my money, and, (imho) too much is spent on Horsham, and not enough on the Inspectorate.

Wynne

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

Ashley Rubens — Sun, 22 May 2016 08:28:15 GMT

On the positive side I've tried arguing it the other way, that the work I'd done didn't add up to the IET fee, and they wouldn't have that either and insisted on paying the full amount.

This was for OOH treatment of an owl that had been hit by a car and was stunned, having it in, giving it a check over and some pain relief and then arranging collection and a day in an aviary with a meal before release came in well below the standard OOH IET.

I'm not saying they're ever going to end up in credit, but thought I'd add a contrary anecdote!

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 21 May 2016 21:05:34 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]The RSPCA's relationship with vets is essentially that they pay private enterprises to carry out work on their behalf via the IET.[/quote]

If you believe that private practices get sufficient support, both financial and with rehab, then you are sadly mistaken. The RSPCA makes it very difficult to do so.

I am happy to care for stray or injured pets and wildlife. I get annoyed when the general public don't realise that the bulk of this work is done, and paid for, by vets in private practice. I get even more annoyed when the RSPCA doesn't even acknowledge that fact.

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

Alex Gough — Sat, 21 May 2016 20:07:50 GMT

Got to 5* you just for the no true veterinary surgeon comment :)

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

David Mills — Sat, 21 May 2016 19:33:41 GMT

[quote user="alex gough"]

David, there are a couple of possible logical fallacies you have committed here. It could be described as an ad hominem (Hannah doesn't have enough knowledge and/or experience to make this judgement), or it could be an appeal to authority (only someone who has run a multi-million pound organisation can judge how they should be run). It could even be described as a "Don't knock it till you try it" fallacy. I'm not sure though. Which logical fallacy do you think you are guilty of here, David?

Alex

[/quote]

It's not ad hominem as I didn't attack her personally, or her attributes, I simply asked for the experiential evidence behind what she says.

Which was she can see the numbers at HQ and numbers of inspectors.

It's not appeal to authority as I wasn't questioning the authority of the powers that be in the RSPCA. I was simply pointing out that there is likely some strategic thinking around this by people better placed than myself or Ms Richards. Hence my point - I wouldn't criticise how her clinic is run, because I haven't the foggiest how it is. Just because a body like the RSPCA is in the public eye doesn't mean by looking at a few numbers we can make a judgement on how well or badly it is run. I'm not saying it is immune from criticism, but a reasonable person (no not Any true Scotsman fallacy) would be aware of the limitations of their critique.

Not aware of the don't knock it til you've tried it fallacy? Possibly the same as anecdotal fallacy. Anyway. I was just pointing out that being inside the tent pissing out is a better informed position than the other way around. Surely no true veterinary surgeon would disagree?[quote user="Kate Richardson"]Regardless of who is right or wrong, the fact is that some veterinary professionals (and the public) do not have a very high opinions or good experiences of the RSPCA. We may not have all the facts and the experience within the RSPCA that you have David, but RSPCA PR needs to address this and improve it's relations with the vets and make any involvement more of a positive experience.[/quote]

Do they? I'm not sure. The RSPCA's relationship with vets is essentially that they pay private enterprises to carry out work on their behalf via the IET. This is work, mainly, that vets would have to carry out FOC otherwise, as per the GtPC. They do this because they cannot possibly attend every call or access their own vets all over the country. The arrangement - and the organisation - are unique.

Does the RSPCA 'need' to improve its relationship? I don't think so. It would be nice. But what bemuses me is this sense of entitlement that vets feel to be patted on the back, profusely thanked, or whatever, for work they would have to do anyway. Ho hum.

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

Kate Richardson — Fri, 20 May 2016 16:42:13 GMT

Regardless of who is right or wrong, the fact is that some veterinary professionals (and the public) do not have a very high opinions or good experiences of the RSPCA. We may not have all the facts and the experience within the RSPCA that you have David, but RSPCA PR needs to address this and improve it's relations with the vets and make any involvement more of a positive experience.

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

Alex Gough — Fri, 20 May 2016 12:08:15 GMT

Alex

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 20 May 2016 09:04:05 GMT

I've been a mamber for many years.............in fact since childhood. I actually have a far higher opinion of the RSPCA than most veterinary surgeons, but I do think it's become top-heavy in recent years.

I obtained my information from the RSPCAs own annual report.

Wynne

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

David Mills — Thu, 19 May 2016 22:50:44 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]The number of Inspectors employed, and the number employed at headquarters are in the public domain, and, quite frankly, are unbalanced.[/quote]

Do remind me, just so's we know from what well of experience this statement is born, how long you worked for the RSPCA and the last time you were in charge of a large multi-million pound organisation?

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 19 May 2016 18:14:37 GMT

The number of Inspectors employed, and the number employed at headquarters are in the public domain, and, quite frankly, are unbalanced.

Wynne

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

David Mills — Thu, 19 May 2016 17:27:33 GMT

I understand people's frustrations with the NCC but for an organisation as large as ours it's inevitable and good governance. Show me a bureaucratic operation that could not be improved.

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 19 May 2016 16:49:17 GMT

If the RSPCA halved its headquarters staff, and doubled the number of Inspectors, it would soon regain the respect it's lost.

Local branches.............some are excellent, some are not..........depending on the local committee.

Wynne

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 19 May 2016 09:23:46 GMT

In agreement with what's been said above. I deal with the RSPCS Southport & Ormskirk centre and do all their veterinary work, they're very good. I deal with inspectors. They are also very good.

Ringing up to get IET purchase order number... now that's a different story. Even the inspectors find it a ballache.

RE: RSPCA doing nothing again?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 18 May 2016 09:17:17 GMT

I have enormous respect for the Inspectors.

Headquarters are something else.

Wynne