Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

grumpyoldman — Mon, 16 May 2016 22:24:30 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]From past experience 9/10 times it is the client telling porkies or just plain misunderstanding.[/quote]

That is very true ,they love playing people off and changing their tune , more faces than a church clock sometimes.

The problem we often see with random members of the public picking up strays OOH is that there is no where to just easily dump them , and they get frustrated when they find its illegal to just re-abandon them on the street. We find them tied to the bench outside the surgery door at late checks . Sometimes they ring and tell us ,sometimes they are just left there in a box .

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 16 May 2016 17:31:37 GMT

[quote user="Jacquin Mitchell"][quote user="J G Wray"]Why don't you reconsider and give the VetsNow management a call and discuss the incident? They might even have a recording of the phone calls which could be enlightening.[/quote]

Because I was advised to just leave the incident unchallenged up thread.[/quote]I don't think anyone said it should go unchallenged, I at least just said that it was up to the client to report it to the RCVS. However aggrieved I was I would want to hear Vets Now's side of the story first. From past experience 9/10 times it is the client telling porkies or just plain misunderstanding.

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

Bob Russell — Mon, 16 May 2016 16:33:16 GMT

VetsNow have written contracts with their member practices. I don't use them at present but there are a few clients with their number on 'speed dial'. They have never refused to see them.

I don't have the right to send people to VetsNow so I would not!!

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

J G Wray — Mon, 16 May 2016 16:30:08 GMT

[quote user="Jacquin Mitchell"] don't know why I would need them as I usually use a different OOH service who have never refused to see anyone I have sent in their direction[/quote]

You didn't use your own OOH in this instance. How difficult would it have been to text your lady with their details and use your name as a sort of intro?

[quote user="Jacquin Mitchell"]VetsNow sound like they only take the clients of specific clinics.[/quote]

Your OOH service will be the same.

As for never needing VetsNow or any practice you don't normally work with I would have thought that someone in your position might want to foster the very best relations with everyone, rather than making assumptions as to behaviour, because we all come unstuck at some point. Limiting the choice for you and your clients under all circumstances looks naïve to me.

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

Jacquin Mitchell — Mon, 16 May 2016 16:24:46 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

They will have a recording of all messages so feel free to contact them if you feel it is appropriate. If I get requests from outside my area (for advice) then I suggest they contact a local vet or their OOH service.

I would only refer to my OOH provider as I don't consider I have the right to impose on someone I do not have a contract with!

A badly injured patient should be accepted for initial assessment by any vet on duty. From there it is a professional and contractual issue and the vet should act on their conscience!

As a mobile vet with an arrangement with another practice, I would only pass them onto that practice. If this was not acceptable then it would be up to the individual with the cat to make other arrangements.

[/quote] That's fair enough.
I wouldn't have considered suggesting the nearest OOH service to her if she had been a client of mine, I was just concerned that time was of the essence for the cat.

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

Bob Russell — Mon, 16 May 2016 16:16:58 GMT

I would only refer to my OOH provider as I don't consider I have the right to impose on someone I do not have a contract with!

A badly injured patient should be accepted for initial assessment by any vet on duty. From there it is a professional and contractual issue and the vet should act on their conscience!

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

Jacquin Mitchell — Mon, 16 May 2016 15:57:43 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]Yes and we do not know for sure how your lady articulated her problem to Vets Now. We only know what she chose to tell you over intermittent comms and you have retold here. If we are to assume anything, then I would gently suggest we might assume that people, fellow professionals, who deliver an emergency service all the time might have a different and valid point of view on this incident.[/quote]

You are right, I'm guessing English is her second language so she might not have used the right words to get the help she needed.

[quote user="J G Wray"]Why don't you reconsider and give the VetsNow management a call and discuss the incident? They might even have a recording of the phone calls which could be enlightening.[/quote]

Because I was advised to just leave the incident unchallenged up thread.

I was under the impression that she didn't call but just walked up to the clinic with the cat, but could be wrong about this.

I don't know why I would need them as I usually use a different OOH service who have never refused to see anyone I have sent in their direction. VetsNow sound like they only take the clients of specific clinics.

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

J G Wray — Mon, 16 May 2016 15:49:49 GMT

[quote user="Jacquin Mitchell"]I just assumed that vets are supposed to see stray animals for emergency treatment. That was the point of of my OP![/quote]

Yes and we do not know for sure how your lady articulated her problem to Vets Now. We only know what she chose to tell you over intermittent comms and you have retold here. If we are to assume anything, then I would gently suggest we might assume that people, fellow professionals, who deliver an emergency service all the time might have a different and valid point of view on this incident.

[quote user="Jacquin Mitchell"]But it seems that it's not necessarily that straightforward.[/quote]

Quite

At some point in the future you might really need Vets Now. Are you really going to cut yourself off from them, because of an incident like this? Why don't you reconsider and give the VetsNow management a call and discuss the incident? They might even have a recording of the phone calls which could be enlightening.

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

grumpyoldman — Mon, 16 May 2016 15:44:39 GMT

[quote user="Jacquin Mitchell"]I just assumed that vets are supposed to see stray animals for emergency treatment. That was the point of of my OP!
But it seems that it's not necessarily that straightforward.[/quote]

Few things in life are straight forward, if its quiet 10pm and you have had your dinner ,your much more likely to nip back to the practice and help someone genuine , than a 2am traveller with a whelping chihuahua you have never seen before pulling the welfare card. No one likes being mugged whether big corporation or small privateer. There are so many scams and bad people out there trying to get something for nothing . Another one we have had a few times in the past is "strays" dumped on a Friday night and reclaimed on the Monday , its later transpired they were not strays at all but people going away for the weekend wanting free boarding . No dog warden from lunchtime on Fridays !!.

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

Jacquin Mitchell — Mon, 16 May 2016 15:30:21 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

This sounds almost biblical. With the perfection of hindsight, do you think you could have done something differently in order to assist the professional colleagues you were suggesting might handle the case?

Who did the cat go to for support?

[/quote]

I just assumed that vets are supposed to see stray animals for emergency treatment. That was the point of of my OP!
But it seems that it's not necessarily that straightforward.
I believe the lady who rang me was helped by a neighbour coming back from the clinic, who helped track down another vet as her subsequent texts didn't come through until I was on my way home.
I haven't had an update since.
I don't know what I could have done differently, but obviously in future I won't direct anyone to that VetsNow.

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

J G Wray — Mon, 16 May 2016 15:15:26 GMT

[quote user="Jacquin Mitchell"]I had dodgy reception ( thanks EE) and couldn't access the internet and my phone was cutting out when dialing, so I was replying by texting the lady concerned so was trying to give her helpful information as concisely as possible.[/quote]

Phones, phones, phones. This is an old chestnut.

[quote user="Jacquin Mitchell"]I hadn't considered for a moment that they would turn her away but now I know better.[/quote]

Who did the cat go to for support?

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

Jacquin Mitchell — Mon, 16 May 2016 15:05:22 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]BTW, and it is very local, apparently, but in North London the RSPCA's response to anything except a nice juicy cruelty case has been, invariably IMHO, zero.[/quote]

We are NW London and RSPCA involvement is vary rare. We are a very multicultural area and a lot of people genuinely have no idea about animal handling. They are often frightened by something like an injured bird in their garden.
Telling them to ring the RSPCA is completely pointless.
I do have neighbours with injured birds turning up at my house quite regularly though :) The kids think it's hilarious.

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

Jacquin Mitchell — Mon, 16 May 2016 14:59:55 GMT

No, of course I don't pick up every waif and stray, but if I can help, I do.
I scan them and if we can track down an owner, we contact the owner, otherwise they go to the closest clinic if they are injured or rescue if they are okay.
Most of the time ( 80% or time) we find an owner.
This is mainly cats. I've been involved in a few stray dog cases but the dog wardens help with those if they are enclosed. I've helped with transport to clinics often though.
Injured wildlife often gets driven out to Tiggywinkles which is miles away, but there are various London based groups I contact too.
Sometimes things have spent the night in a dog crate in the garage but we have cats and dogs of our own so it's not ideal:(

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

Anthony Todd — Mon, 16 May 2016 14:25:26 GMT

[quote user="Jacquin Mitchell"]I often get calls to go out and scan stray cats to see if they can be returned to their owners, and have picked up my fair share of injured ones as well.[/quote]

Good for you [no sarcasm at all] and I'll bet it has done your reputation no harm at all and the cats have appreciated it!!

I'd love to see the log [and I'm sure the "commercial" vet. practices log the calls] of the "many" calls to strays and unowned that some complain of.

BTW, and it is very local, apparently, but in North London the RSPCA's response to anything except a nice juicy cruelty case has been, invariably IMHO, zero.

What I meant in the OP's case was not to suggest or cast aspersions on the OP, but to suggest that, if VNow has this policy, then sooner or later the publicity will be very bad and usually the publicity generated by attending is worth much more than the cost and inconvenience.

Er, you could also point out that they are actually being paid for being awake, whether they attend to OOH calls or neglect a suffering animal.....

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 16 May 2016 14:23:59 GMT

[quote user="Jacquin Mitchell"]Normally I would have gone and collected this cat and taken up to the clinic I use myself but I was relying on some one else for transport yesterday and it was not possible for me to leave. I often get calls to go out and scan stray cats to see if they can be returned to their owners, and have picked up my fair share of injured ones as well.[/quote]I've done with the criticism of you method of working and am genuinely interested in this. Obviously if someone finds an injured stray/wildlife casualty we tell them to bring it to the clinic or as often as not they just turn up unannounced. Clearly this is not practical in your case as you have no fixed abode so do you honestly go out and pick up every waif and stray that people phone about and where do you keep them if you do?

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

Bob Russell — Mon, 16 May 2016 14:10:52 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Exactly the same rules apply to OOH clinics with regard to treatment of strays, or home visits, or transport of animals between clinics, or anything else at all.....................at least that's how it should be.

Wynne

[/quote]

Actually the OOH clinics do not have any responsibility to treat strays, visit patients or transport patients. They are not answerable to the RCVS but are answerable to the general public when bad publicity is banded about.

It is the individual vet on duty that is answerable as would be any veterinary surgeon involved in decision making!

Vets are 'regulated' when it comes to welfare, clinics are not!

That said, I have no issue with VetsNow when it come to ethical behaviour.

P*k*y and travellers are not the same thing. It appears to have been derived from turnpike where itinerant travellers and thieves would camp near a settlement.

It is a derogatory term and meant to be so. It does not apply to all travellers and can apply to non-travellers and travellers alike. Milder than some other descriptions I can think of!

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

Jacquin Mitchell — Mon, 16 May 2016 14:05:57 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Jacquin Mitchell"]She's not a client of mine ( has no pets) and rang me asking for advice.
I would have gone and collected the cat myself if I could have.
Obviously I won't suggest that VetsNow again![/quote]

Thank you for your reply. So, I'm curious how do you define the geographical and temporal limits of your practice? You've told us you are in the same school catchment area as the lady who phoned you but unable to attend.. I can map our client addresses and justify our client catchment area. Do you do this? - SAVSNET can kind of do this btw

The other part of the question is about what happened subsequently. We all get asked about stuff on dog walks, in supermarkets, whatever and we limit the advice to the most anodyne. Here you organised for the cat to go on somewhere else. Was this a veterinary practice?

You won't suggest Vets Now in future, but this will probably happen again. Who will you send the patient to next time? It's just that I have a conversation in my mind which goes something like this:

Lady in question calls Vets Now "I wonder if you can help, I've been advised to contact you about an unconscious cat I found in my garden. I spoke to a vet I know who told me you're open....."

VetsNow call answer person thinks "Is this a member practice vet or not? If not then why are they not suggesting their own OOH cover service...."

In future it might be an idea to contact the practice you're sending someone to and tell them your reasons. It might get a more flexible response from a fellow professional. Just a thought.

[/quote]

I have a map of the areas I service on my website and I rarely travel beyond that area, except for the odd euthanasia.

As I said in my original post, I was away from the area, so didn't have access to the normal information that I would have had if I was at home.

I had dodgy reception ( thanks EE) and couldn't access the internet and my phone was cutting out when dialing, so I was replying by texting the lady concerned so was trying to give her helpful information as concisely as possible. I hadn't considered for a moment that they would turn her away but now I know better.

Normally I would have gone and collected this cat and taken up to the clinic I use myself but I was relying on some one else for transport yesterday and it was not possible for me to leave.
I often get calls to go out and scan stray cats to see if they can be returned to their owners, and have picked up my fair share of injured ones as well.

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 16 May 2016 12:42:26 GMT

OK so Arlo has set up the system to autocorrect p*k*y to 'traveller'. Censorship is never good our illustrious leader!

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 16 May 2016 12:40:07 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]We quite regularly get scammed by other peoples clients with injuries OOH pretending its a stray, with the you have got to see it because it suffering line, (they get this from the police and RSPCA), getting it treated then getting a third party to come and collect it for them the next day. We are all vunerable and as bad burned as scalded with the current GPC, which is out smarted by crafty pikeys using a genuine commitment to welfare to get something for nothing.[/quote]Last week we had someone turn up for C4 (charitable scheme) spay saying if was a stray and thus qualified for free neutering. I scanned it and it was chipped. They then admitted they'd had it chipped and vaccinated at the opposition down the road who charges a lot less than we do for neutering but doesn't participate in the scheme. The irony is almost palpable! I told her the cat didn't qualify but that if she brought in proof of income support (which she then said she was on) we could do it on that basis. She no-showed for her appointment. Its a dilemma though, I start to feel guilty if the cat doesn't get neutered because it will out breeding and producing unwanted litters.

More in line with the OP I got a call on Saturday from someone whose kitten died last week and now the other one is going the same way. No money of course cant be arsed travelling to a charity provider, Blue Cross allegedly told her that any vet would stabilise it over the weekend (at his cost of course) then they could see it after the weekend. She then does the transfer of guilt bit, 'So the kitten is going to die because you won't see it'?, to which I replied, 'No its going to die because you've got animals you can't afford to treat'!

I reluctantly saw it out of my duty of care, turns out its someone who is a bad debt and no-showed when she booked in 3 cats on the C4 scheme earlier in the year. It was immediately obvious that the kitten was profoundly anaemic from the massive flea infestation it had. I gave it a shot of Vit B12 and told to go and ask the pet shop if they would give her some flea treatment for free. Again I felt guilty for not spraying it with Frontline, which would have cost me very little, but why should encourage this low life?

Don't even get me started on the travellers:

Last week some one came in with stray/abandoned dog and we found a chip. We called the registered telephone number and it was answered by someone with a traveller accent who said they weren't the name on the chip registration, he'd sold it to them. 'So why have you answered the phone that is registered to the person whose name the dog is registered in'? 'I need to make sure its my dog before I collect it'. 'Of course its your dog you answered the registered telephone'. Needless to say he never collected the dog, one of my nurses took it home for the night and the dog warden collected it the next day. I asked her if she was going to take action against this person for abandoning the dog and she said it wasn't her responsibility. So whose is it?

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

grumpyoldman — Mon, 16 May 2016 12:09:59 GMT

I think its pretty much their bat and their ball so they do as they please ,probably depends upon the attitude of the local management . We quite regularly get scammed by other peoples clients with injuries OOH pretending its a stray, with the you have got to see it because it suffering line, (they get this from the police and RSPCA), getting it treated then getting a third party to come and collect it for them the next day. We are all vunerable and as bad burned as scalded with the current GPC, which is out smarted by crafty pikeys using a genuine commitment to welfare to get something for nothing. I do not blame anyone for being reluctant to deal with none clients OOH , as VN are there anyway its probably easier for a nurse to just scan it and take it off them instead of then dealing with a conduct s***e storm. It should just be down to the individual on the ground.

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 16 May 2016 12:08:00 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]......In future it might be an idea to contact the practice you're sending someone to and tell them your reasons. It might get a more flexible response from a fellow professional. Just a thought.[/quote]Well JGW I've just given you 5 stars - that must be a first.

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

J G Wray — Mon, 16 May 2016 11:59:07 GMT

You won't suggest Vets Now in future, but this will probably happen again. Who will you send the patient to next time? It's just that I have a conversation in my mind which goes something like this:

Lady in question calls Vets Now "I wonder if you can help, I've been advised to contact you about an unconscious cat I found in my garden. I spoke to a vet I know who told me you're open....."

VetsNow call answer person thinks "Is this a member practice vet or not? If not then why are they not suggesting their own OOH cover service...."

In future it might be an idea to contact the practice you're sending someone to and tell them your reasons. It might get a more flexible response from a fellow professional. Just a thought.

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 16 May 2016 11:49:54 GMT

Wynne

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

Jacquin Mitchell — Mon, 16 May 2016 11:38:04 GMT

[quote user="J G Wray"]

[quote user="Jacquin Mitchell"]I run a small mobile practice in NW London and got a phone call today from a lady who had found an unconscious cat that wasn't hers in her back garden[/quote]

Ahem, what do you do for OOH and holiday cover and how do you define the "geographical" and temporal limits of your practice?

You found a practice, a Vets Now practice to see the patient, which didn't end well, then.....? "

[/quote]
I replied further up/down. I have another practice about 20 minutes drive from this lady who does all my OOH and holiday stuff, it's not been a problem but this lady was a parent of a child at my kids' school. She's not a client of mine ( has no pets) and rang me asking for advice.
I would have gone and collected the cat myself if I could have.
Obviously I won't suggest that VetsNow again!

RE: Are After Hours Clinics allowed to refuse emergency treatment on a stray?

J G Wray — Mon, 16 May 2016 11:34:08 GMT

[quote user="Jacquin Mitchell"]I run a small mobile practice in NW London and got a phone call today from a lady who had found an unconscious cat that wasn't hers in her back garden[/quote]

Ahem, what do you do for OOH and holiday cover and how do you define the "geographical" and temporal limits of your practice?

You found a practice, a Vets Now practice to see the patient, which didn't end well, then.....? "