Am I alone in feeling like this?

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

patrick murphy — Sat, 07 May 2016 16:11:37 GMT

we had a single digit IQ that we fired bounce back in last week! also one of my staff showed me her spacebook, and one of the doggie people was going on about how great her vet was, and then the next day posted a letter showing that she was officially fired. how strange.

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

bevs2251 — Sat, 07 May 2016 01:19:42 GMT

Same the world over (I'm from Oz). Still here 30 years later but don't want to be !! Might depend on your boss, demographic etc. Maybe find a job with less a...hole clients ! I would never work in western Sydney due to client type ! You can always "fire" nasty clients. Let them go elsewhere & give someone else grief. Concentrate on the nice clients & give the nasty ones short-shrift ! Charging appropriate fees will weed out most of the nasties. NO DISCOUNTS !!

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

Gerry Henry — Fri, 06 May 2016 08:22:50 GMT

My lost sister, separated at birth Good result for Ruth Davidson last night, the day seems brighter already.

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 04 May 2016 09:18:33 GMT

You're right Mark. If the NHS was totally privatised, it would mean a real reduction in taxation.

Wynne

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 03 May 2016 21:06:19 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]

I do hope the last post was meant to be ironic.

[/quote]

Iain, meet Wynne. Wynne, meet Iain. Now that introductions are made, regular service can resume. ;)

(longwinded way of saying 'no, that's not ironic, that's Wynne') :D

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

vetbl.locum — Tue, 03 May 2016 20:40:10 GMT

I don't think it was !

In fact I fairly sure it was not irony but a statement of fact

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

Iain Richards — Tue, 03 May 2016 20:09:37 GMT

I do hope the last post was meant to be ironic.

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 03 May 2016 19:02:15 GMT

I begrudge what's paid to doctors - because it's been stolen from taxpayers.

Wynne

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

Gerry Henry — Tue, 03 May 2016 18:01:27 GMT

Make allowances for client stress etc. A lot of people are just taut due to other stuff possibly unconnected with their animal. On the other hand if they're just nasty learn how to say 'why don't you f*ck off somewhere else' without actually using the 'F' word. In you dealings with clients (until you know them well) be firm, professional and polite, if you're too soft or apologetic a certain kind of person will perceive it as weakness and attack.

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

Julie Turner — Tue, 03 May 2016 17:37:56 GMT

Years ago a quiet word from a senior partner to unreasonable clients worked wonders. I also wonder why we, as a profession, have become the butt of so many 'moneymaking ' comments. Our medical colleagues are paid much more than us, which I don't for one minute begrudge. I've just paid £600 at the opticians and the dental bills sometimes require a mortgage. I respect these people and do not understand why SO many complain at us. We are also saddled with the requirements to explain EVERYTHING within 10 to 15 minutes, or risk suing/disciplinary action. I find this bloody hard and have been practising >25years. I agree with one commenter in that you have to amplify the positive parts of this job or it will take you down. At least we are voicing this now. I have come to the conclusion that I must tell myself that people might have 'stuff' going on in the background, and so to be empathetic mostly. It still gets to me, meditation/mindfulness techniques help. If not, try the wax dummy.

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

Anthony Todd — Sun, 17 Apr 2016 20:45:33 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]One area I feel able to immediately control/change is how I present things to the client and how I respond to them.[/quote]

As an a suggestion, and one I used when I felt I was losing the client, was to suggest that "the boss" had a look at the animal and I to sit in [after briefing him or her] on the consult.

I used to get "uncle Clive" or one of the senior guys or gals at the practices I worked in when I started to "have a look", with the owner and you will be amazed at how the same facts and opinions being presented in a different way can have the owner agreeing to everything that you had said before.... You'd ask to be there too of course.

Some vets can make a client agree that the world is flat........

As Frank Carson used to say "It's the way I tell 'em"

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

An On MRCVS — Sun, 17 Apr 2016 20:32:07 GMT

OP here. Thank you all for the support and encouraging remarks, as well as some interesting food for thought. Sincerely, I am so grateful and I also feel I've got something productive out of venting. It has helped confirm that this is an area I need to work on. Be it mindfulness, self-awareness, empathy, ability to offer a "take it or leave it" approach, or whatever you want to call it, I would like it to affect me less.

One area I feel able to immediately control/change is how I present things to the client and how I respond to them. Then at least I know I've done my job properly. One of the reasons I feel bad is because I think that I've somehow done something wrong and that's what's p133ed them off (a sort of "this wouldn't happen to another vet" mentality). So it's reassuring if nothing else to know that it happens to the best of us.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]but IF the owner doesn't want the bloods done, and is happy the dog is currently 'well' - and you have no evidence to the contrary- couldn't you just continue to prescribe the meds?[/quote]

Absolutely! And I'm all for working with each client and patient on an individual basis. But she didn't say she didn't want the bloods to be done, she didn't say, "I really can't afford that, is there a way around it without compromising my dog?" Because I can work with that :) She just threw her outrage at me, I was a bit lost for words and unfortunately I took it personally and ended up giving her far too much time that I should have in hindsight.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]It sounds like you went to a lot of trouble to placate this owner, reduce their costs and, in the end, she ended up with a 'better deal' by being bloody awkward. I would suggest that in future you 'give up' at an earlier stage, and move on to the next client! Spending so much time and effort with her was stressful for you, and rewarding for her![/quote]

A good observation Gillian, and this is another area of reflection that I have vowed to learn from. I have been told before that I am "too nice" and I need to just tell them how it is and don't waste time on these people. So, fair point

[quote user="Joyce Whitehead"]we also record all the thank you cards, presents and verbal "X vet was so good and caring, please say thanks to them". This is a very valuable exercise as the nice comments always outweigh the bad.[/quote]

Great idea! We spend too much time on the negatives and things that aren't working.

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]

My standard quote in these situations , "our job is to facilitate your responsibility to your pet ,no one made you have a pet ,unfortunately you have to pay us for it because the state does not fund this service". "There are alternative outlets providing similar services and its a free market economy please do not feel obligated to bring your pet here in future". Stay calm and do not loose your temper. Word soon gets around and no one gives me any lip anymore.

Just don't let the miserable difficult people get to you . Let them get to someone else.

[/quote]

I love this. Unfortunately I don't think my boss would happily let me be this straight with people. If I were the boss though, I would have no qualms about saying this to some clients, who I think we really could do without.

[quote user="Iain Richards"]send a proxy hug through the ether, because we've all been there and care that you feel crap.[/quote]

Thanks, made me smile!

[quote user="George Cooper"]As an assistant, you could try the "broken record" approach to being assertive. It goes like this. "I understand Mrs Grumpy that you can feel like this; however, that is the situation and the cost if you choose to accept, is £xxx" Repeat ad nauseam without getting any further into a discussion or justification. "Yes it does seem expensive, but that is what it will cost." You can stand firm, be pleasant, smile even but do not move ground an inch. Eventually they run out of steam.[/quote]

Think this is good advice, I'm going to give it a try. The way these things usually go, I'll probably have a nice run of lovely compliant clients now and forget the advice before I have to chance to practise... at least I know I can come back to this thread when I need it.

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

Anthony Todd — Sun, 17 Apr 2016 18:56:53 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"]NOW onto number one - the ability or otherwise to achieve a desired result,[/quote]

etc

The art of practice; so well put, not on the curriculum anywhere, as far as I know, so listen and learn on here or you'll be thinking about giving up too.

Don't give just up, develop the "art", after all you've all got science in spades.

Most, if not all, clients can be persuaded by the "art" and most can't be moved, at all, by the "science".

Just to prove my point I'll bet I get no more than one star for this.....

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

Derek Lyon — Sun, 17 Apr 2016 17:30:40 GMT

So pleased I decided to retire early

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

grumpyoldman — Sun, 17 Apr 2016 12:50:05 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]However, then there are the others. People who feel entitled. People who think, and forcefully point out, that we are ripping them off. People who think that by shouting and being aggressive, they will get a better deal. People with genuine personality disorders who simply cannot communicate in a normal and effective way. And then there are the racists, homophobes, misogynists, and other deeply unpleasant people.[/quote]

Welcome to Monday morning Surgery . There is an irrational jealousy of the right to prescribe, particularly amongst recent immigrants who are used to getting what they need over the counter. At any one moment in time 3-5% of the population are completely off their trolley or have been recently ,its always interesting how many recognise and are familiar with fluoxetine and mirtazapine.

We also get some confused and angry older people who are in the early stages of Altzhiemers Parkinsons etc they are confused and forgetful which sometimes leads to bursts of anger. Often they and their relatives have not noticed the problem and its tricky to suggest that maybe they are not the full quid anymore and may need some help. The diagnosis is often delayed by poor GP availability so they wait until there is a road accident or a domestic disaster with a forgotten chip pan. These people Over dose or forget the dogs tablets and then blame the treatment or vet that prescribed it.

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 20:38:25 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"]It is as if every client who, in our eyes, behaves "badly" (whatever that might mean) or refuses to accept our recommended treatment/test/surgery.[/quote]

I think that you have to separate those two things.

Some clients are unable to afford the recommended route, and instead request that we offer cheaper alternatives whilst doing the best for their pet. They understand and accept that our costs are reasonable - they simply can't afford them. That is perfectly OK, and the vast majority of vets would happily work with them to get a successful outcome. Maybe some vets would be judgmental and inflexible in which case I agree with you - We CANNOT know the minutiae of our clients' lives or finances and we MUST accept their decisions.

However, then there are the others. People who feel entitled. People who think, and forcefully point out, that we are ripping them off. People who think that by shouting and being aggressive, they will get a better deal. People with genuine personality disorders who simply cannot communicate in a normal and effective way. And then there are the racists, homophobes, misogynists, and other deeply unpleasant people.

Unfortunately we have to deal with them all. I'd say that the OP is describing somebody who falls into the second category somewhere. Saying that the OP is in any way at fault by feeling bad after this consultation is, I feel, doing them a disservice.

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

Dalriata — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 20:14:05 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"]

there is an incredible "Them and Us" feeling

......behaves "badly" (whatever that might mean)

[/quote]

I thought I would clarify "behaving badly" because I think it was me that used the phrase in this thread.

I fully expect clients to ocassionally be frustrated, upset or even dissatisfied in my consult room for many of the reasons already given in the thread; some factors within my control and some not. In my example earlier my client was right to be annoyed with a bill larger than he expected, & I was wrong not to give an estimate. I imagine with another client this could have been resolved with calm discussion. However this client behaved badly, & because I was guilty I hadn't given him an estimate I did not assert myself as I should have.

Behaving badly includes intimidating aggressive body language (door blocking, standing and leaning toward you, puffing out chest, screwing up face, agitated rapid pacing, roughly manhandling dog, forceful gesticulations), abusive language (shouting, swearing, seething/spitting as they talk, threats), & being unwilling to cooperate to resolve an issue (won't listen to itemised explanation of the bill, won't talk to another vet in the practice, won't take the post op information sheet or certain drugs/items FOC as good will gesture).

We shouldn't pretend we don't occasionally face abuse in the work place and we shouldn't accept it. What we must be careful of is confusing emotional/upset clients & awkward clients with those who truly behave badly.

Another bit of advice from my husband (& yes Arlo he is very sensible and has helped me with client interactions more than vet school or any colleague ever has) is never to talk badly of any of our clients in the staff room. I'm sure we have all been guilty of it "oh god you've got to call Mrs miggins again - good luck! Silly old bat!".... but it is so unprofessional, & does give an "us and them" feeling to the work place and as others have said you are often surprised when you learn a client's individual situation and what they are dealing with.

FYI it isn't the younger vets I've worked with who have a superiority complex - especially with clients but also other staff members...

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

Eilidh Corr — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 17:01:50 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]I don't think it is very helpful for someone who is already feeling upset about a client's, lets face it appalling behaviour, to be told the way they are feeling is "inexcusable".[/quote]

I think George was making the point that setting the clients up as the enemy is inexcusable. I don't personally think there's anything wrong with the OP feeling the way they do - it's something most of us have faced at some point - but there are ways to try to avoid these situations or deal with them in ways which help us feel happier about the outcome.

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

patrick murphy — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 17:00:57 GMT

the unqualified answer is always.scratch the surface and you will frequently find guilt about the price,the animal, the unaffordability, or they have problems in life, or they are just wired wrong. just think about how many rant about their gp's, and they don't have to bring pets,emotion and money into the equation.it is hard even after 35 years to not take it personally and leave it at the door. go home to people who like you, but you must. (and sack them)

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

Eilidh Corr — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 16:58:20 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"]We CANNOT know the minutiae of our clients' lives or finances and we MUST accept their decisions. If we have done our bit in offering options (if that is your way), explaining potential costs (if costs are involved), and warning about potential trip hazards on the way then we have done EXACTLY what we are there to do.[/quote]

Exactly what I was trying to say, only much more eloquently put :)

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

Utlendigur — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 16:57:14 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"]It has come across loud and strong both in this thread and in others that there is an incredible "Them and Us" feeling - and NOT just from younger vets, but from some of the more experienced vets who post here. I find this almost inexcusable. [/quote]

I don't think it is very helpful for someone who is already feeling upset about a client's, lets face it appalling behaviour, to be told the way they are feeling is "inexcusable".

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

George Cooper — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 16:43:50 GMT

Two points I'm going to pick up on (because I've not figured out how to multiple cut paste and reply to relevant bits) 1. Neil and his "authority" angle and 2. Eilidh -

Dealing with number two first. It has come across loud and strong both in this thread and in others that there is an incredible "Them and Us" feeling - and NOT just from younger vets, but from some of the more experienced vets who post here. I find this almost inexcusable. It is as if every client who, in our eyes, behaves "badly" (whatever that might mean) or refuses to accept our recommended treatment/test/surgery. It is of course because that rebuff is taken personally - which it isn't. We CANNOT know the minutiae of our clients' lives or finances and we MUST accept their decisions. If we have done our bit in offering options (if that is your way), explaining potential costs (if costs are involved), and warning about potential trip hazards on the way then we have done EXACTLY what we are there to do. The clients then makes their decision.

NOW onto number one - the ability or otherwise to achieve a desired result, and it is best illustrated by, sorry, and anecdote. A gifted young VS who worked for me at one time was lamenting his inability to get dental worked booked in with the necessary blood test prior to the GA and the procedure. He was, in his eyes, "failing" and was turning into a "self fulfilling prophet of DOOM"! He'd say "Oh they'll never go for that....." and stuff of that ilk, and when they declined, he'd say "There - I TOLD you they wouldn't go for it!"

The solution was simplicity itself - to use the correct English phraseology, and after he had indeed mastered that he stood at a practice meeting and was fulsome in his praise of the way to do it, and his success record became 100%. He used to say things like "Well, it could do with some dental work sometime - and a blood test would be useful if you'd like.....". After he'd say "The RIGHT thing for Fido is that we book him in on Tuesday to get that mouth put right, giving YOU a clean mouth to keep clean, and get rid of that smell. AND before we go into theatre we will run some bloods to make sure everything is ok with his systems. I'll cost £x, which is a good investment in his ongoing health. Is that all ok for you?"

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 16:25:29 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]Is this not being imparted to young vets who may be more vulnerable and less confident by their mentors? Or do fewer graduate vets have mentors now ? [/quote]

I do think there has been an increase in the 'turnover is king' approach to business. I have a colleague who has worked in a JVP where everyone's weekly turnover, and their target, was put up on the wall every Monday. Thus there is the added stress of not only offering best practice for the pet, but also questions from on high as to why this wasn't taken up and therefore turnover drops. (But not necessarily profit...????)

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

Eilidh Corr — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 16:23:16 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]Is this not being imparted to young vets who may be more vulnerable and less confident by their mentors? Or do fewer graduate vets have mentors now ? [/quote]

I'm twelve years qualified and I know a lot of younger vets who have a very "them and us" attitude to clients. Consequently life is stressful for them because every day they're working with the enemy. Vet schools possibly impart a bit of a superiority complex, I don't know. But from a resilience perspective, and when protecting your own mental health is important, I think accepting that there are many "right" ways to manage a case is essential.

In my experience (which may well be different to the experience of others, who knows?) the majority of clients who react badly to discussion of costs do so because they're worried about a much loved pet and they can't afford huge bills. And of course there are those who have the attitude that all vets are out for money. The only way to kill off that preconception is to speak openly about treatment options and associated costs and let the clients be involved in the decision.

We're meant to be caring, and that should extend to clients too. I've got my dreaded list, there's no escaping them, and I agree that standing firm and refusing to be bullied is important, but showing that you're willing to be open to discussion is a step towards getting people on side.

RE: Am I alone in feeling like this?

Neil Wheadon — Sat, 16 Apr 2016 16:20:10 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]I'm making assumptions about the ages of the vets who have replied but appears we have all learned this the hard way over the years and when we were younger have felt much the same as the OP ,[/quote]

True

The other factor in our favour is authority. Not so much because we know more but because we are looked at differently by a client and they are more submissive.

Classic case 2 weeks ago. I saw a greyhound, obvious renal pain and weight loss. I told them that they needed a blood sample and it would cost £80, that was what they needed to do as I would only be guessing. Low and behold...

However the young assistant caught me later and said 'I've been trying to do that for 2 years' with no success

I do feel that in this respect age does help

Neil