The Perfect Job

RE: The Perfect Job

Bob Russell — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 10:24:14 GMT

Qualified nurses have the advantage of being in demand! Not enough nurses for the jobs out there. It means they can chose to work closer to home, perhaps more flexibility in hours and part time working.

The buck stops with the vet so probably a bit less stress associated with out of hours working?

Younger/less experienced vets are more easily replaced than qualified nurses it seems.

RE: The Perfect Job

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 09 Sep 2016 10:10:43 GMT

At a slight tangent (but I think not enough to press the tangent button), I've done the same survey amongst veterinary nurses.

There were differences in the job attributes they could select as being important to the job, but a few things really stood out for me:

1. Feeling valued as part of a collaborative team came out as the single most important thing they're looking for in the job. Followed by pay. Followed by work-life balance.

That compared with veterinary surgeons who answered: work-life balance, then clinical facilities, then close-knit team. Pay came only 6th!

2. Very similar dislike of OOH, though slightly more nurses prepared to do OOH than veterinary surgeons (58% vs 52%)

3. Nurses a bit more internet savvy? (85% use it as primary source of new jobs, versus nearly 70% of vets).

4. Nurses prepared to travel less far to work (53.9% said within 30 minutes/15 miles, versus 39.4% of veterinary surgeons who said the same)

Main thing I thought is that when recruiting veterinary nurses, important to convey processes in place which indicate the degree to which the nursing team is valued. Suggestions from over on VetNurse included:

Defined career progression ladder
Funded CPD
Process through which VNs ideas are heard, considered and implemented if good
A time off allowance for use in emergency, but bonus paid if not used.
Clinical coaches given sufficient time to perform both roles
Sufficient staffing
Allowing nurses to do the things they have proven themselves good at.
Show appreciation with pay rise when warranted, before it has to be asked for!
Zero-tolerance of bullying
The odd 'thank you' team event (ie paid for night at the pub, team building event).
More than two uniforms, replaced when they're worn out!
Supplies for own pets at cost price
Saying 'thanks'

Other thing I thought was that job adverts on VetNurse rarely give salary details. Clearly pay is a more important factor to nurses than veterinary surgeons (presumably because they get so much less), and where practices are offering a good remuneration, it's worth highlighting.

RE: The Perfect Job

Bob Russell — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 09:53:52 GMT

Might be worth a tangent but it is a real sign of the times that Vet Times (June 6 2016) Vol 46 No 22, has the headlines, "Rising Number of Students Regret Taking Vet Course".

With experience of the profession, I would be very reluctant to recommend this as a job with a sound career path. New graduate salaries dropping last year by an average of 4% and many practices in the hands of accountants and bean counters.

Too many new graduates, too many rubbish jobs and too high an attrition rate! Too few survivors gaining the long term experience that this job really needs!

Is there a perfect veterinary job?

RE: The Perfect Job

Wren — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 09:17:41 GMT

[quote user="Nigel Haizelden"]

My other BIG concern at the moment as an employer is day one skills. I am again at a loss to see so many final year students and new graduates who have never :

given an iv injection to a horse

passed a stomach tube

rectalled a horse

scanned a mare - or indeed anything else

endoscoped a horse

performed a dental procedure

placed an iv catheter!!

knocked out a horse or many even monitored an anaesthetic

[/quote]

Nigel, we don't get a lot of students at our ambulatory equine practice, but those we do I make surethat they experience as many of those things as possible before leaving, whether they be 2nd year or final year.

The problem with ambulatory practice is that you inevitably have the owners present, which can be a barrier, both in terms of student confidence, or owner's feelings about having a student do the job. In small animal practice most of these tasks can be practiced 'out the back' with no owner present. The same is true in equine hospitals where students can stomach tube etc. in-patients with no owner present.

I take every student to visit my own (extremely cooperative!) horses as early as possible during their stay and I get them to get blood samples, give IV injections, place catheters and evealuate and rasp their teeth. Once I know that the student is competent (or otherwise!) I ask them to do these tasks out on visits with selected clients. Some horses you are only ever going to get one shot at a blood sample or similar and I tend to do these myself unless the student is mega-competent.

I would hope that you are providing the students that see practice with you with a similar experience, as they are only going to learnt these skills out in the real world.

RE: The Perfect Job

Sophie Aylett — Wed, 01 Jun 2016 12:10:42 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I'm happy any of our vets calling me when I am not on call - either for direct help or just advice. Unless you are very new I just cannot guarantee that I am always in signal and fit to drive a car.[/quote]

As an employer, I think that is a fair stance especially since it is your name above the door and your practice's reputation etc. However new grads also need to be pushed: sent out on their own to do a potentially complicated procedure beyond their comfort zone, not always knowing that you are only 5 mins down the road, in a layby, waiting in case they seriously need help!

Where are all the 2-5 year experienced vets? Chatting to other vets in this age range, it seems approx. 60% have left the profession already. This makes it incredibly difficult to find vets but I think it does make employers have to take on new grads, and have to invest in them responsibly, not just abuse and abandon them.

RE: The Perfect Job

George Cooper — Thu, 26 May 2016 19:12:32 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="George Cooper"]i always felt that the purpose of a job ad was to spell out exactly what was on offer professionally in all areas in such a way that it attracted as many enquiries as possible, which then led to greater discussion by phone before invitation to interview. By using photo journalistic techniques of the practice coupled with video footage the whole recruitment market is opened wider than ever before, and becomes so much more informative than the chummy fluffy ads of old![/quote]

George Cooper This job, which went up a moment ago, made me think of you: https://www.vetsurgeon.org/jobs/2359/

.... in that it's the first I've seen with a testimonial from an employee, which, even if not ground-breaking, is I think a really good idea - and moving more in the direction of the journalistic approach you're talking about.

[/quote]

Not only is the endorsement hugely readable and well done, when you click onto their practice website with even more telling stuff it makes you realise that, with a bit of time invested, some lateral thinking skills, and sheer "enjoyment" a vacancy can be made to be as appealing as it ever can be.

Terrific stuff.

RE: The Perfect Job

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 26 May 2016 17:13:17 GMT

George Cooper This job, which went up a moment ago, made me think of you: https://www.vetsurgeon.org/jobs/2359/

RE: The Perfect Job

Bob Russell — Wed, 04 May 2016 13:28:27 GMT

I remember the terror of the first weeks in practice but we were expected to get on with things!

My first weekend on duty was a baptism of fire. Calvings (one impossible), stitch ups cow and dog etc etc. Boss was away (more fool him!) but there were partners from other branches.

Not much fun and probably scarred for life!

Today we have a near suicidal profession, with some hell bent on aggressively undercutting in a manner that would put Tesco to shame.

Arlo mentioned a survey showing nearly half of the profession are working for under £35K. Another survey put vet graduates on an average of £35K ten years after graduating! Second or third from bottom of all degrees!

Disgraceful but perhaps inevitable in a world where growth is considered more important than standards or profitability and ethics/manners are no longer expected.

RE: The Perfect Job

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 03 May 2016 18:00:07 GMT

[quote user="Nigel Haizelden"]

Hi Arlo excellent work once again!!

Im sure your jobs service will be popular - especially since a number of the more traditional vet job advertising media seem to think they are the financial times with their charges!! Worry not about the teething problems - that's new technology and im sure all will be fine now![/quote]

Thanks Nigel Much appreciated.

RE: The Perfect Job

Anthony Dennison — Tue, 03 May 2016 17:57:05 GMT

[quote user="Nigel Haizelden"]As a new graduate would you rather have your first go at placing an iv catheter and euthanising or anaesthetising a horse in a controlled environment with experienced staff to back you up and explain the procedure as you do it?[/quote]

This does happen though - we used to be involved in the process and tested regularly during an equine GA. Euthanasia is a bit more difficult: it's an emotive subject, having 10 or so students observe just would never happen. However we were taught in depth on the subject and how to do it.

I think the bigger problem is not what the university are teaching, but the attitude of the students currently in the system. I don't want to tar them all with the same brush, but the people graduating and willing to give anything a go from day 1 due to actually spent time during EMS gaining practical experience rather than being a quiet observer in the corner is much smaller than even when I graduated 4 years ago.

It's not just practical skills either. New grads seem terrified to talk to clients - we had one that wouldn't make eye contact with anyone, colleagues and clients! Which is a shock as communication skills are more heavily taught nowadays.

RE: The Perfect Job

Nigel Haizelden — Tue, 03 May 2016 17:48:50 GMT

Dear Anthony,

Your last sentence completely makes my point.
As a new graduate would you rather have your first go at placing an iv catheter and euthanising or anaesthetising a horse in a controlled environment with experienced staff to back you up and explain the procedure as you do it? Or at 1am trying to put a trashing horse out of its misery with crying 14yo girl trying to hold it and two hysterical parents who know nothing about horses whatsoever??
Im afraid this is what DOES happen in practice to young grads in practices where the back up is poor - which is all too common sadly.
The result - a client disaster, a possible RCVS complaint and litigation, injury to vet or owners, the loss of confidence when another practice gets called in to sort out the mess?? Horrendous!
It used to be accepted that when an owner took a horse to a university clinical unit they would receive highest up to date standards of care possibly at lower cost and would accept their would be teaching involvement. At priorities and financial constraints have changed and teaching send to be way down the list.
Yes the keen students will and should Push forward and try to gain as much experience as possible - after all you are paying a small fortune for your undergraduate education now which at current salaries is increasingly difficult to recoup.

RE: The Perfect Job

Anthony Dennison — Tue, 03 May 2016 17:30:52 GMT

[quote user="Nigel Haizelden"]

My other BIG concern at the moment as an employer is day one skills. I am again at a loss to see so many final year students and new graduates who have never :

given an iv injection to a horse

passed a stomach tube

rectalled a horse

scanned a mare - or indeed anything else

endoscoped a horse

performed a dental procedure

placed an iv catheter!!

knocked out a horse or many even monitored an anaesthetic

the list goes on.........

How do universities expect these young people to be able to perform in practice , gain confidence, and function without being under enormous stress and upsetting clients and messing up their cases without these ESSENTIAL day one skills??? This is a crisis that needs addressing immediately

[/quote]

Speaking from my own experience... at Bristol the equine department was quite quiet whilst I was on my equine rotation (compared to somewhere like Leahurst or NEH) so there weren't as many horses to be able to do these procedures on per student (the horsey people would do a lot more, the people less interested would get away with doing less).

The other big thing is the costs involved with horses and potential liability if anything went wrong - of course students will always have a chance to practice these techniques but you are much more likely to let a student have a few goes at getting a cephalic cannula into a dog or cat compared to multiple attempts at getting a jugular cannula in a horse.

Those students who wanted to go in to equine practice made sure they did enough on rotations and during EMS to come out with competencies. Those who didn't didn't really bother. If an expensive sports horse or racer came in to a university equine hospital and there was a complication, would 'Sorry, we used your horse as a teaching opportunity and the student made a mistake' be an adequate excuse?

Coming from a smallies angle, there are probably a higher percentage of new-graduates who struggle with i/v catheters, scanning and scoping. Again; those who were keen at uni did more (partly due to snapping up cases, partly due to clinician preference). Once you're out in the wide world it's harder to hide.

RE: The Perfect Job

Nigel Haizelden — Tue, 03 May 2016 17:09:23 GMT

Hi Arlo excellent work once again!!

As a practitioner of 25+ Years and about to recruit again soon I have deep concerns about the survey results - the writing has been on the wall for a long time though and perhaps the profession and universities will sit up and listen now??? Maybe that is too much to hope.

It is about time the publics' myth of highly paid vets and high fees was blown out of the water. This may just help if this reaches the mainstream press. Increasing student numbers is driving down salaries , making teaching harder and lowering standards, and is of great detriment to the profession in my opinion

Whilst I am very keen to promote work life balance in practice (especially my own!) I am at a loss at the percentage of respondents not wanting to do ANY OOH work. That is like wanting to be a pilot but not liking flying. The job involves 24 HR service provision and yes this can be delivered in any number of innovative ways but to expect to do none increases the burdens on everyone else and is an unrealistic aspiration. I would suggest some of these people maybe chose the wrong career? Ooh work is a challenge to fulfill however it can be some of the most stimulating and interesting work we carry out - the key is training your clients' expectations and when to call you. Plus realising there are other ways available than dashing out to every call - although some see this as a money making exercise, often at junior assistants expense. Perhaps the profession needs to look again at whether we should be compelled to provide 24/7 cover? I fear animal welfare would suffer however the profession needs to decide it's priorities as a whole - those that work in it not just those that regulate it.

My other BIG concern at the moment as an employer is day one skills. I am again at a loss to see so many final year students and new graduates who have never :

given an iv injection to a horse

passed a stomach tube

rectalled a horse

scanned a mare - or indeed anything else

endoscoped a horse

performed a dental procedure

placed an iv catheter!!

knocked out a horse or many even monitored an anaesthetic

the list goes on.........

Nigel

RE: The Perfect Job

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 12:31:23 GMT

This is so interesting, some much as expected but I am surprised punctual is even mentioned as I would expect that as a given in paid employment.

RE: The Perfect Job

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 10:56:01 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]Maybe Arlo could do another survey? Could have score out of 10 for how much the job matched the promises. Describe in 3 words/phrases why you left your last job - would be interesting![/quote]

Utlendigur - yes, that would be very interesting. I do see these surveys as just a starting point.

[quote user="George Cooper"]The sole reason for being perhaps provocative is to attempt to change - let's use a different expression - the 'traditional' language that gets trotted out time and again - because it is not working. And because of that, Arlo, I'm going to argue with your comment following my comment (somewhere else, that I can't see on this thing).[/quote]

George Cooper I'm not sure which comment following which of my comments you're arguing!

As I say, I'm not convinced that people are brainwashed. I think the tired old recruitment advertising is a consequence of the fact that historically advertisers have been limited by what they can squeeze into a classified advert. When you've only got 100 words to play with, you kind of have to say 'team-player needed', rather than 'someone who'll get on and work well with the rest of us', however clichéd the former may sound.

[quote user="George Cooper"]i sincerely hope that Arlo succeeds in helping to change and improve things with this, perhaps even getting employers to reflect on how they actually treat employees along with employees really thinking through what they really want from their work. This "advert stuff" is just the tip of the iceberg. [/quote]

Between you and me, I was thinking exactly that when I wrote the report: this is not just about how you attract employees, but how you treat them. And however simplistic these first surveys, they are a start.

On that note, I've done the number crunching on the survey of EMPLOYERS (did you get that George ) and what they are looking for in their employees.

Again, perhaps no big surprises, but a useful reminder if nothing else about priorities in the CV and smiling, and hopefully a catalyst for further thought and discussion. Any feedback very much appreciated, particularly if you disagree with any of the recommendations it contains.

www.vetsurgeon.org/.../employer_2D00_survey_2D00_v1.pdf

and here's the word cloud of the most common adjectives used to describe what employers are looking for in an employee.

RE: The Perfect Job

Utlendigur — Mon, 04 Apr 2016 13:05:18 GMT

[quote user="Silvia Maldonado"]

I do find this survey quite useful. Surely there is always something else to add, and it is essential to know what a potential employee aims at, but that's half the path. The other half is keeping him/her after the probationary period. Playing the Devil's advocate, What are your main reasons to resign? It might sound useless, but say you look for a local SA practice, with no OOH, and good salary.

Once you got it, Why do you leave?

[/quote]

Maybe Arlo could do another survey? Could have score out of 10 for how much the job matched the promises. Describe in 3 words/phrases why you left your last job - would be interesting!

RE: The Perfect Job

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 04 Apr 2016 10:32:16 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]My personal take on this is that most vets can do more than they think they can - OOH they are just pushed into doing it because there is no one to fall behind. It is much easier passing the bitch caeser onto the experienced vet in the daytime than if you have to drag them out of bed on their night off. I believe it raises the threshold to what you are prepared to do, without encouraging reckless risk taking.[/quote]

This is definitely a big thing. When I first started, I was on my own OOH, for the first 3 months I had someone I could call it all went Pete Tong but they wouldn't come in for much. Now we have a dedicated back-up system, some vets will call their back up in if consults are a bit busy and they're worried about time keeping.

RE: The Perfect Job

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 03 Apr 2016 22:21:01 GMT

[quote user="Stephanie Fursland"]I think being on call would mean you are more likely to have to do it yourself, so probably pushes you into doing more, but it's likely that at least some of the on call cases will be beyond your comfort zone - so you end up progressing more quickly, but with more potential for mistakes being made. I would be interested to hear how bosses deal with this - do you just resign yourself to being 2nd on call forever, or do you accept that there might be a bit of a spike in your mortality rates and leave them to it (apparently this is the case when the new cohort of junior doctors start each year...)?[/quote]

My personal take on this is that most vets can do more than they think they can - OOH they are just pushed into doing it because there is no one to fall behind. It is much easier passing the bitch caeser onto the experienced vet in the daytime than if you have to drag them out of bed on their night off. I believe it raises the threshold to what you are prepared to do, without encouraging reckless risk taking.

It is acknowledged that emergency surgery carries a higher risk. You are not going to be castrating a dog and scaling teeth at 3am. Some GDVs will die whoever operates on them.

I'm happy any of our vets calling me when I am not on call - either for direct help or just advice. Unless you are very new I just cannot guarantee that I am always in signal and fit to drive a car.

RE: The Perfect Job

Stephanie Wellings — Sun, 03 Apr 2016 22:10:35 GMT

[quote user="Clare Tapsfield-Wright"]

[quote user="Stephanie Fursland"]

As a relatively (3 years) new graduate, the OOH question is a difficult one. Personally, I would welcome OOH work if it was adequately supported and reimbursed. However, a lot of my friends would not consider a job with OOH - there are plenty of jobs without, when you do do it it seems 'tacked on' without proper time off in compensation; given partnership etc feels like a pretty unrealistic prospect for lots of us, and earning potential quite limited as an assistant, why break your back to make money for someone else's retirement?

I think new grads now are less likely to 'just get on with it' than vets of 20 years ago - we are more aware of our limitations and not working outside of our competence. Rather than us being inherently a bunch of wimps, I think this has to do with the the wide availability of higher standards of care - I.e. Referral centres, hospitals, senior colleagues even - and feeling like if we don't offer/mention these, and the outcome is bad, the owners are much more likely to complain (maybe fees are relatively more than what they used to be; maybe the public are more demanding...) - and this feeling means OOH becomes a much less attractive prospect.

[/quote]well put Stephanie. Do you feel that doing OOH gives more opportunity to widen experience or does it depend on the practice you work for as to how much opportunity you get to perform complex and emergency surgery ?

[/quote]

Bit of both. We have an ex VetsNow vet at my practice, and a boss who is very surgically oriented, so I can watch them, or have a go myself with them making supportive noises, it's pretty much ideal - but it's a luxury, not all practices have the time to let newer vets attempt these things under supervision, or they don't get the caseload, or they don't have the inclination. I think being on call would mean you are more likely to have to do it yourself, so probably pushes you into doing more, but it's likely that at least some of the on call cases will be beyond your comfort zone - so you end up progressing more quickly, but with more potential for mistakes being made. I would be interested to hear how bosses deal with this - do you just resign yourself to being 2nd on call forever, or do you accept that there might be a bit of a spike in your mortality rates and leave them to it (apparently this is the case when the new cohort of junior doctors start each year...)?

I think it would be great to include some form of OOH or at least sole charge/decision-making into the PDP, but I think a very significant number of people are not competent in this capacity at 1 year post qualification so it would be a big obstacle in completing it - and the support new grads get to gain this experience won't improve just because 'its in the PDP'....

RE: The Perfect Job

Dalriata — Sun, 03 Apr 2016 16:07:16 GMT

[quote user="Stephanie Fursland"]

[/quote]

I agree entirely. I am 6 years out and feel lucky that I've landed in 3 small mixed practices where OOH competency is needed, so the support is in place in your early years to ensure you are competent. I would encourage any new grad to try and find a new job like this where they do relatively high amount of OOH (I think 1:4 is perfect for your first few years), as the challenge and the reward can't be compared to anything else in practice. We encourage our vet students to come on OOH calls with us, and I think this gives them a taster of this and most we have through seem prepared for a job with OOH.

I am amazed that lots of even my year group seem to be stuck in practices where they basically do nothing but consult all day and if it isn't external referral they are forced in to by practice policy then it is internal - they don't get to follow any of their own cases through; no ultrasound, no xraying, certainly no surgery if there is a more experienced vet in the practice. Are practices guilty of employing new/young grads to do the donkey work, not developing them and simply replacing them with new cheap labour force when they become so jaded with the job that they move on or give up? One of my colleagues (same year as me) has just started a surgery course and was amazed that she was only one of two in the class (11 people all at least 4 years qualified) that had ever performed an ex-lap! I was certainly performing solo ex-laps within my first year, and that was in a <50% SA practice.

I hope the careers advice is a little better at vet school now then it was when I left. The profession is diverging so much and there are so many choices for new grads now, I can see how they would be tempted with a shiny hospital with no OOH but do they understand the choice they are making?

RE: The Perfect Job

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Sun, 03 Apr 2016 15:54:52 GMT

[quote user="Stephanie Fursland"]

RE: The Perfect Job

Stephanie Wellings — Sun, 03 Apr 2016 15:42:10 GMT

RE: The Perfect Job

Nhombokisheni — Sun, 03 Apr 2016 13:57:45 GMT

I hear you all.....but can we honestly compare the employment options vets have today to twenty some years back. Today we have more clinics/hospitals, more specialists, more referrals and as human nature often is....the less work the more attractive the option. We now have more ooh dedicated places.....so today's New vets do not have to carry the world like back tthen. These days even during the day, plenty practices are simply referring rather than lock horns with apparently difficult cases.....sometime back there was a post where the individual confessed that their practice had not fixed a fracture in for years...they simply refer.

I feel the issue of avoiding these decision demanding scenarios is down to the fact that like every profession we have the really good vets, the not so good vets and the name vets who simply will do everything to breeze through life without having to be responsible. Not to mention the homeopathy vets who opt to negate everything they have learnt and dedicate their lives to experimenting on animals.

In future the possibility is real that to survive the profession will have to acknowledge that employment of full time OOH staff is the way to go........because even those currently on rotas with OOH will soon realise they can get paid the same elsewhere for doing less and most will move. The commercial ownership of practices which do have hostile working environments has brought in the treatment of vets employed as just a mere statistic that is easily dispensable.......and the few practices offering good mentoring and grooming are mostly fully staffed......so a lot feel there is no need to push any further than is necessary.

RE: The Perfect Job

Joyce Whitehead — Sat, 02 Apr 2016 22:44:26 GMT

I would also agree with this. We have employed a few new or recent graduates over the years, and often chat about their friends' experience in other practices. One of our recent grads seemed to have had a run of "bad" nights with lots of calls. We often will come in to help with advice or assist with surgeries etc. But she has had to deal with dogs in status, nasty wounds, possible foreign bodies etc. All of which her non OOH colleagues don't see, as the experienced vets take those cases over. She has the advantage of someone to call as back up, but we like to encourage our vets to do the work with the back up of an experienced vet to help.

I am also off this weekend but assisted with a caesar this morning. I have to admit to recounting that my first solo Caesar in practice was a bulldog who had had 2 previous sections, not easy, but with the help of another vet I called in, I coped. Maybe as I had to. This is not a "good old days" post, as I could easily have sunk in my first, very busy, unsupported practice doing a 1 in 2 on call. I would not want to submit other people to that stress. But there is a middle road.

RE: The Perfect Job

Neil Wheadon — Sat, 02 Apr 2016 21:34:35 GMT

[quote user="Alet Engelbrecht"]I feel this is quite worrying as well.[/quote]

Yes Michael has a fair point.

Working with many newly qualified and recently qualified graduates there isn't as greater grounding as there was even 10 years ago. OOH forces you to make decisions and get on with it, allowing for confidence building. I have met vets 4 years qualified who are yet to do a caesarian. The problem is , how to rectify this, but maybe it is having a more undermining effect as although hard, OOH cases and the like are often the most satisfying, and many graduates are missing out on this.

Neil