Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

Liz w — Sat, 09 Apr 2016 09:32:52 GMT

Bob, Pressed wrong bit - meant to give you 5 stars but finger slipped ( just incase you wondered who was anti farm welfare )

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 09 Apr 2016 09:31:33 GMT

Brilliant!

I'm so pleased. Welfare regulations should be far far stricter, but at least things aren't getting worse

Wynne

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

Bob Russell — Fri, 08 Apr 2016 09:20:40 GMT

'U turn' completed!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35992493

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

Bob Russell — Wed, 30 Mar 2016 11:33:17 GMT

Clearly off on a tangent to OP but relevant to a number of parents (not just kids of vets) so will start a tangent if I can!

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

Phil Hyde — Wed, 30 Mar 2016 08:17:22 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Sadly much comes down to the power of the internet. We have spent the last three years dealing with group pressure (mostly from unknown third parties), pushing our daughter into worse and worse behaviour.

It seems the more extreme the footage, the better and once on social media these cretins bask in the 'glory' of the stupid comments that result.

Daughter has now left home at 16, GCSE grades are down the pan and there actually is sod all parents can do about it. Police seem to have pretty much given up until something bad happens. Sentences like this do nothing to put the culprits off!

Lesson leaned by us (too late), never allow any internet connective devices in bedrooms!

[/quote]

Been there, got the t-shirt. My youngest of four did the same. Ran away when just turned seventeen. No qualifications; nothing. Ended up being abused etc etc. Finally got pregnant at age 17. Nearly destroyed us. We put it down to peer pressure etc, but wherever there was trouble, she was there.

Dont give up on her. Be there as a final point of stability, but ABOVE ALL don't get too involved. It'll destroy you. In our case, when we finally took that attitude and didn't go running to her every time when in crisis at three in the morning, after the usual explosion, things calmed down. 18 months later, her baby is healthy and happy. we are closer than for a long time. Still problems, but getting there slowly. She's now even looking to get some qualifications.

The close social contact provided by the Internet 24 hours a day may be a factor, but things like this have been happening for a very long time.

You are not alone.

Best of luck.

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Tue, 29 Mar 2016 10:15:00 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

It seems the more extreme the footage, the better and once on social media these cretins bask in the 'glory' of the stupid comments that result.

Lesson leaned by us (too late), never allow any internet connective devices in bedrooms!

[/quote]How very sad , it must be devastating for you to have tried so hard and I hope that one day your daughter will realise who it is who really cares about her. I think the right to choose is all very well but in the hands of disabled or damaged individuals it allows them to follow the wrong road too easily.

Social media can be a blessing and a curse

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

Bob Russell — Tue, 29 Mar 2016 09:32:42 GMT

It seems the more extreme the footage, the better and once on social media these cretins bask in the 'glory' of the stupid comments that result.

Lesson leaned by us (too late), never allow any internet connective devices in bedrooms!

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 28 Mar 2016 12:03:04 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I've signed it Thank God for hell - since punishments on this earth are so woefullly inadequate for people this evil

[/quote]

At that age Id guess parental education must have something to do with it. I cant definitely say bcause I don't have kids.

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 28 Mar 2016 11:57:54 GMT

I've signed it Thank God for hell - since punishments on this earth are so woefullly inadequate for people this evil

Neil We could still import foods of vegetable origin, and yes, you're absolutely right about the necessity for statutory birth and immigration control to reduce the population to a sustainable level. I know you're being sarcastic, but many a true word is spoken in jest.

Francisco. What on earth do computers have to do with this terrible treatment of poor poor Babe?

Wynne

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 28 Mar 2016 11:35:37 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

There is a particularily harrowing facebook video of a bulldog puppy being repeatedly thrown down stairs (akin to church towers - a one of maybe) and the sentance as suspened and it happened in ............the UK.

[/quote]

... talking of which... https://goo.gl/rYZHFk (this a link to a petition regarding the severity (or lack of) of the sentence imposed to those who cause this case of animal welfare)

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 28 Mar 2016 11:29:45 GMT

I bow to your experience, but it's all about enforcement. the EU can provide a legal framework but if individual countries won't enforce it that's hardly the fault of the EU.

We can't simply ban imports, we don't produce enough food, so we would need to intensify further leading to lower welfare standards. (cue population control arguement) UK productive land feeds London, that's it, so we need bacon/eggs/wheat from abroad And if we leave the nightmare scenario is that the EU will break up, so no umbrella welfare standards anywhere.

Yes historically our welfare standards may have been better than Europe, (though there is always a suspiscion that Johny Foreigner is not to be trusted, so is this really true??) but with this government hell bent on dismantling the State Veterinary Service (AHPA) we need a brake on it and the EU provides this.

Neil

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 28 Mar 2016 11:29:26 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Before we went into the EU, we had minimum values legislation

[/quote]

43 years ago we didn't have the internet, so we didn't have to regulate it. You can't compare the UK outside the EU now ant then.

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 28 Mar 2016 11:13:02 GMT

Before we went into the EU, we had minimum values legislation, so horses couldn't be exported un;less they'd been sold for too much money to be slaughtered. Before Romania joined the EU we didn't have puppies imported from there. Our animal welfare regulations have historically been better than those of the rest of Europe, in fact they still are - throwing live goats from church towers would never be tolerated here. Our regulations on sow welfare are much better than those in Denmark - and if we got out we would have the legal right to not only improve our regulations further, but also to ban all imports of foods of animal origin from countries whose regulations are inferior to ours.

I know deregulation is currently the fashion, but the fact that the Codes can be abolished shows the EU isn't working to protect animals.

Wynne

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 28 Mar 2016 10:58:42 GMT

EU legislation and this includes animal welfare is the umbrella under which individual countries work.

This is a classic case of the EU providing protection to animal welfare.

Consider this. A country wants to save money, so it runs down its state veterinary service and passes over responsibility to its stakeholders (farmers) That's happening in the UK as I type this.

Now consider that a country for economics may want to cram 12 chickens into an individual pen, as that means they can be intensively farmed and so they have a competitive advantage. What's going to stop them? If they are in the EU that'll help (read the rules, I have) but if they aren't they can do as they please, so the EU acts as a brake on poor animal welfare practice, and this is Europe wide.

This applies to so much of the EU legislation, there are health and safety rules that all member countries are bound to follow. You only have to visit China,, India etc to see builders blancing in girders 20 metres in the air to appreciate that maybe things aren't so bad and this includes all the animals

Neil

PS Live animal exports is nothing to do with the EU. If we left tomorrow, it would still happen. However thanks to legislation once they get to Greece they can't all be crammed into a tiny shed to further add to their suffering.

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 28 Mar 2016 10:30:24 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

If I thought that there was even the slightest chance of remaining in the EU improving animal welfare

[/quote]

I don't think remaining will improve/worsen animal welfare in the UK, it'll stay the same. But since the Codes rely in part on EU regulation, leaving might change things. For the worse or for the better.

If current government movements are pro-deregulation, what do you think is the most likely?

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 28 Mar 2016 09:38:51 GMT

If I thought that there was even the slightest chance of remaining in the EU improving animal welfare, even I might be tempted. However, I'm convinced the opposite is true - think of live export, importation of puppies from Romania.

Wynne

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 27 Mar 2016 23:32:10 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]I worked on the codes and compliance at defra. The codes simply stand as a "reasonable man" point of reference. They are not prescriptive but detail what farmers obligations are Re legislation. They don't go any further than tgat. All available online, go compare them to the legislation. [/quote]

Admit I'm puzzled as well

Welfare Complaints are handled by APHA who were/are obliged to visit, has this changed?

Like many services vets in APHA are reducing? and there is a push to self regulation by agricultural industry.

However the EU has legislation, and if we remain in the EU (Wynne et al, want to leave) we will be obliged to conform to this (If we leave then these welfare cuts could occur) In Europe there is a view in Governments that vets should have a more active role in welfare, so we can only go so far.

I'd like more detail rather than more spin, as I learnt from FMD that the press are often ill informed.

Neil

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Sun, 27 Mar 2016 21:16:31 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

I don't understand the furore about this.

The codes were heavily based on the legislation.

The legislation is still in place, and compliance with it forms part of the sfp.Nothing's changed really?

Storm. Teacup. Comparisons to other industries are simply lazy logic.

[/quote]if nothing has really changed then why abandon the codes which people are familiar with and ask industry to compose their own guidelines. " it's just a guideline" is often used as a convenient excuse and less likely to result in compliance. I don't have much faith in industry to regulate itself , there are too many vested interests, too much money involved and token lip service paid to animal welfare.

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 27 Mar 2016 19:34:45 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

All available online, go compare them to the legislation.

[/quote]

I already have! that's what scares me! Something that is now just not done, might become 'normal'. It's pretty much all down to interpretation, why would you let interpret legislation those who have the less reasons to be strict?

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

David Mills — Sun, 27 Mar 2016 19:32:52 GMT

I worked on the codes and compliance at defra. The codes simply stand as a "reasonable man" point of reference. They are not prescriptive but detail what farmers obligations are Re legislation. They don't go any further than tgat. All available online, go compare them to the legislation.

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 27 Mar 2016 19:22:59 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

The codes were heavily based on the legislation.

[/quote]

'Legislation that makes it a criminal offence to mistreat animals is not being changed but the statutory codes have until now been used to give magistrates guidance on where those being prosecuted have fallen short compared with good practice.'

from http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/mar/25/government-planning-to-repeal-animal-welfare-codes

In my view (and I recognise it might not be everybody's view), an action towards an animal that is not necessarily specified in the legislation might not be acceptable according to the codes, which are currently independent from profit. Once the code comes into the hands of those who seek profit as their most important aim, that action might become permissible.

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

David Mills — Sun, 27 Mar 2016 16:30:23 GMT

I don't understand the furore about this.

The codes were heavily based on the legislation.

The legislation is still in place, and compliance with it forms part of the sfp.Nothing's changed really?

Storm. Teacup. Comparisons to other industries are simply lazy logic.

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 27 Mar 2016 13:03:19 GMT

Well done. So far I've had 1 out of hours case today, and the owners have promised to sign.

Wynne

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 27 Mar 2016 11:48:49 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] I assume it's all to do with keeping the masses happy with cheap food - and the welfare of the poor animals is sacrificed

[/quote]

That's exactly my take on this. I worded something similar in my fb page to ask my friends in social media to sign.

RE: Welfare codes for farm animals abolished by the end of April

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sun, 27 Mar 2016 11:23:08 GMT

It's not even that - the Codes were only codes, not law, and weren't policed - but at least they gave us something to go on when prosecuting. Now we won't even be able to say "This is how animals should be kept. This is how these poor ones were kept." I assume it's all to do with keeping the masses happy with cheap food - and the welfare of the poor animals is sacrificed.

Wynne