Tragedy

RE: Tragedy

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 24 Mar 2016 12:46:52 GMT

I don't think so, I don't want to be upset for the rest of the day.

Wynne

RE: Tragedy

Gerry Henry — Thu, 24 Mar 2016 12:01:12 GMT

Depends, magnificent but tragic too, risk it

RE: Tragedy

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 24 Mar 2016 11:25:19 GMT

Can I bear to watch that without being reduced to tears?

Wynne

RE: Tragedy

Gerry Henry — Thu, 24 Mar 2016 11:16:14 GMT

Could be worse Wynne.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMAMNYx6b6w

RE: Tragedy

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 24 Mar 2016 11:08:11 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]

Are you saying there is a symmetry between a 'sport' that involves deliberate, NB deliberate, maiming and killing and a horse race, really ?

[/quote]

No, I'm questioning the argument you use to defend horse racing.

RE: Tragedy

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 24 Mar 2016 10:58:47 GMT

Exactly I agree 100% with Francisco. Horses turned loose in a field enjoy racing each other, but you don't see blood at their nostrils - because they aren't "encouraged" to continue to that point. Similarly, they aren't "encouraged" to continue galloping over fences when tired, which predisposes to falls.

I would challenge those who claim jockeys are penalised for pushing tired horses to both produce ststistics proving that the incidence of falls doesn't increase as a race progresses, and also to prove that the incidence of pulmonary haemorrhage is zero.

The claim that if they weren't bred to race, they wouldn't have been bred at all isn't (from a welfare viewpoint ) valid. In fact, it might be better if thouroughbreds weren't such specialised racing machines, because then they might have a post racing future as riding horses, but most have been bred to be such adrenaline junkies (which probably increases their racing ability) that they're not suitable for leisure riders. Admittedly, some are rehomed by charities such as Racing to Riding horses, but more are killed.

I was very disappointed to learn that the incidence of horses being killed was as high in point to points as in National Hunt racing.

Having said all that, I still consider the greatest equine welfare problem is at the opposite end of the spectrum - horses either deliberately bred for slaughter, travellers horses, and horses kept by people who have neither the knowledge, nor the money to adequately cater for their welfare needs.

Wynne

RE: Tragedy

Gerry Henry — Thu, 24 Mar 2016 10:57:06 GMT

Bullfighting is a Spanish issue, up to you whether you ban it or not. Are you saying there is a symmetry between a 'sport' that involves deliberate, NB deliberate, maiming and killing and a horse race, really ?

RE: Tragedy

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 24 Mar 2016 10:09:36 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]

You cannot make a horse race that doesn't want to race, you can't make a horse jump that doesn't want to jump, its in their blood . . they love it, if they die so be it, we all die, that's the point, better to go doing something you love than live in the shade all your life.

[/quote]

Bulls bred for bullfighting have the best possible life an animal can have for 3-4 years, their care is second to none during those years. They absolutely love lunging at you and they thoroughly enjoy doing it, to the point that no matter how many banderillas you throw at them, they won't back off, they will keep going at you. As with the horses you mention, you can't make a bull lunge if he doesn't want to.

Does that, in your eyes, justify being poked to bleed countless times until you're allowed to enter the tercio where you're allowed to die? may be quick if the bullfighter is good enough with the estocada, or you might not have that much luck.

Similarly, is it justified to put a horse in a position of that much danger, just because it has been breed for it and because we understand that they like it? They can't perceive that danger, just like a child, maybe the would decide against 'liking it' if they knew the dangers of what they are undertaking.

RE: Tragedy

Gerry Henry — Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:26:13 GMT

You cannot make a horse race that doesn't want to race, you can't make a horse jump that doesn't want to jump, its in their blood just as NH racing is in ours. Having been a flat and NH vet its my opinion that the wastage in flat is much larger but the injuries are sustained - usually - in training not on the track. You just have to look at the horses when they're being unboxed to see how excited they are, eventing is the same, no sign of anxiety or dread, ears pricked and good to go. I once had a photo, still got it somewhere, of the KTRHA about to enter the arena, the photo was front on, every horse had positioned its head in such a way as to get a glimpse of the way forward, it looked like a bunch of heads not flowers, they love it, if they die so be it, we all die, that's the point, better to go doing something you love than live in the shade all your life.

RE: Tragedy

Wren — Wed, 23 Mar 2016 08:58:19 GMT

And as a post-script I also find that the welfare implications of flat-racing, where skeletally immature yearlings are broken in and 2yos raced, and where there is a huge, enormous overbreeding problem, turnover and wastage rate, are far more troubling to me.

RE: Tragedy

Wren — Wed, 23 Mar 2016 08:52:28 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I don't mind point -to-points. The % death toll is far lower - probably because there's no off course betting, so no massive repercussions on jockeys for not trying. The people who actually attend (usually) understand horses, and the worst a jockey who pulls ip a tiring horse is likely to face is " I had a quid on you, so you owe me a pint"

Wynne

[/quote]

I'm trying to stay out of this debate as someone with a vested interest in NH racing, but I do have to take issue with this as someone who has vetted at racecourses, as well as at several point to points a year for nearly 15 years. I think the death rate is as high, if not higher than NH racing. The horses are trained and ridden by amateurs. Even (on occasion) by people as ridiculously amateur as myself! We regularly had PTP deaths - generally fractured limbs or necks requiring euthanasia, but also the whole gamut of injuries associated with jump racing.

There are Jockey Club stewards present watching every race and the 'not trying' rule is rigorously enforced, as is the 'continuing on a tired horse rule'. We regularly had people in and fined reasonable 3-figure sums for both offences. That is a big hit to the pocket in an amateur low-money sport.

In neither sport is pulling up a tired or tailed off horse punished. It may be investigated for the sake of form, but the jockey need only say 'I felt it going wrong' or similar, and he (she) will not be admonished. The BHA is very aware of public perception and would prefer a tired horse to be pulled up rather than nursed home (as Long Run was), and risk a fall etc. It would be naive to suggest that the sport isn't funded by gambling, therefore any jockey giving a horse an 'easy' or less than optimum ride is going to end up in trouble. That is a different scenario to pulling up a no-hoper.

RE: Tragedy

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 22 Mar 2016 14:14:40 GMT

I hope so too - according to your description he rode like a horseman, not a punter's flunkey. I doubt it though, his relationship with the Cheltenham chairman will probably lead to the "prolier than thou" brigade making an example of him.

Wynne

RE: Tragedy

Virginia Campbell — Tue, 22 Mar 2016 13:46:54 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]it's getting worse - at least in the high profile races. My opinion is that this is partly due to jockeys being more scared of accusations of not trying if large numbers of non-horsy people are likely to be betting[/quote]

Good point - I hope Sam Waley Cohen gets his 7 day ban for the ride on Long Run at Carlisle on Sunday overturned. Not high profile race, high profile horse...ban was for not riding on hard for 3rd when the horse was well beaten and tired. I wonder if he would've got the same ban for an unknown horse that wasn't a Gold Cup winner and favourite for the race. He rode up the home straight the way any humane person would ride a tired horse.

RE: Tragedy

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 22 Mar 2016 13:08:11 GMT

Admittedly I don't have the statistics, but my impression is it's getting worse - at least in the high profile races. My opinion is that this is partly due to jockeys being more scared of accusations of not trying if large numbers of non-horsy people are likely to be betting.

Of course, the life of a racehorse is still better than that of some poor horse bred for slaughter, or some of the ones kept on waste ground in Swansea, but the fact of a greater evil shouldn't stop us doing our utmost to prevent a lesser one.

Wynne

RE: Tragedy

Virginia Campbell — Tue, 22 Mar 2016 13:04:27 GMT

[quote user="Braden Collins"]Most states in Australia have banned jump racing because of welfare concerns,[/quote] The horses die in public.

[quote user="Braden Collins"]flat racing still has more deaths than is ideal[/quote] They mostly die in private, so that's OK.

RE: Tragedy

Virginia Campbell — Tue, 22 Mar 2016 13:01:56 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"]that just has to qualify as THE most puerile, fatuous response of any that I have read on this site. Pathetic.[/quote]

I didn't really mean it to be puerile and fatuous. My thoughts on the subject of jumps racing - like my thoughts on a lot of aspects of animal welfare - are probably contradictory, full of moral relativism and I know that "this is worse, so that is OK" is not a good argument. So I'm sorry if my arguments do not hold water.

I was thinking about the horses killed at Cheltenham, and the lambs, before this thread got to this point. Channel 4 seem to have a format- during the Morning Line and near the start of the afternoon programme, they acknowledge the deaths, look sad, say "our thoughts are with connections" then move on to reporting that day's racing. Graham Cunningham was the only one all week who deviated from the script - he pointed out at the start his frustration that the deaths of "superstar" horses get more attention, whereas in his view they all mattered.

The deaths of No More Heroes, Pont Alexandre and Longdog got a bit more attention than the others as they were considered better horses. I can't remember the names of the others now.

Our lambs didn't have names. There were 12 of them - a small batch - but more than the total number of horses that died at Cheltenham all week. Like racehorses, they used to look forward to us coming with the feed bucket twice a day and we'd check that they were in good nick, eating well and no sign of lameness. I'm glad they loaded up quietly. I hope they didn't get too stressed on the 1 hour journey to the abattoir and in lairage (though presumably more stressed than a racehorse that was used to travelling; they'd never been off the farm). My dad commented that it always made him sad to see them go. I always feel a bit sad too. I know this is silly, perhaps analagous to this[quote user="bob lehner"]the usual hand-wringing response from trainers/owners 'We really love and care for our horses and it's terrible when they have an accident' [/quote].

It's always a weird and contradictory feeling, sending off those nice lambs that come running when they see you. I know that is what they are "for"; why I kept getting up the the night this time last year, spending ages on my knees underneath ewes to teach lambs to suck, catching up the odd few that got joint ill to treat them, trudging round the fields every day all winter to check that nothing had its head stuck in a fence....all for [quote user="George Cooper"]the chance to make money[/quote] so that some people can have [quote user="George Cooper"]purely entertainment[/quote] (eating lamb isn't essential - thankfully, looking at the prices on the supermarket shelves).

Does the fact that the lambs will get eaten make their deaths more noble or acceptable, somehow? If those 7 dead racehorses end up in a tin to satisfy the appetites of our small animal patients rather than being incinerated, will it make it more OK?

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]And you haven't included those the public aren't made aware of - those who suffer pulmonary haemorrhages because they've been raced too hard, and either die in the stables, or get sent for slaughter because they're no further use for racing.[/quote]

Wynne makes a very good point here. I would suggest that the overall death toll for flat racing may be higher than that for jumps racing as the turnover is higher - a flat horse's career may be over by the time a National Hunt store is getting broken in.

[quote user="bob lehner"]hopefully the lambs will be quickly and humanely killed - not subjected to catastrophic fractured limbs/spines/pelvis etc. etc. prior to euthansia?[/quote] Yes, the injuries are horrible. At least on the racecourse the horse - like Longdog for example - will be held up, assessed and shot or treated in a few minutes - about as quickly as the other sport in which paramedics follow the competitors round the course to deal with catastrophic injury (motorbike road racing).The intentional deaths in farming are quick. The unintentional deaths are slower. We found a dead hogget in the field last Monday morning. She had presumably looked OK when mum went round them before dark on Sunday night. I don't know how long it took for her to die, or how much she suffered. I don't know why she died. I checked her liver - no fluke - we drench them and vaccinate them so hopefully not a clostridial disease either. We do what we can to prevent such deaths - for the welfare of the sheep, our own financial interest and to pass our farm quality assurance inspection but such things are an inevitable consequence of rearing farm animals. You can do what you can to minimise problems but there will never be zero animal suffering as long as farm animals, racehorses or pets are kept.

[quote user="George Cooper"]to say that "that's racing" or "That's the way it is" is a cop out[/quote] True. Which is why there is research into EIPH and breakdowns looking at training methods, ground surfaces, fences and all sorts of things; and also why (AFAIK) the overall death rate for horses on racecourses is reducing.

RE: Tragedy

Braden Collins — Tue, 22 Mar 2016 12:55:31 GMT

Most states in Australia have banned jump racing because of welfare concerns, although flat racing still has more deaths than is ideal. Somehow the racing industry survives. It just needs ashort period of time to accept the new "normal". There's no reason why any of the jump races couldn't be converted into flat races. Sure, there may be some short term revenue loss, but I don't think that's an excuse for anything to continue indefinately.

As much as it may be argued that it is tradition, there still comes a point where we need to argue if it is still acceptable. It's the same as the bull fighting arguement - traditional, but no longer acceptable.

RE: Tragedy

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 22 Mar 2016 12:46:01 GMT

Hear hear

Wynne

RE: Tragedy

George Cooper — Tue, 22 Mar 2016 12:02:09 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

[quote user="George Cooper"]And that just has to qualify as THE most puerile, fatuous response of any that I have read on this site. Pathetic.[/quote]

Come on George, you can do better than that - attack the argument if it is as poor as you believe. A vegetarian, a vegan or a moral philosopher might struggle to recognise an essential difference between rich well fed people exploiting horses for entertainment and rich well fed people exploiting lambs so they can over-eat.

Your response, to some eyes, looks like a worthy competitor for the title, "THE most puerile ........"

[a more IT-literate person than me would, at this point, insert one of those "tongue in cheek" cartoon things!!]

[/quote]Cheers Malcolm! Take care not to bite that portion of your tongue that's in your cheek!

I'm sorry you didn't 'get' the reason for my particular response, so I'll elaborate. To me we are a profession, presumably sophisticated and intelligent, dedicated to saving lives, improving lives, sparing "suffering", by dint of our intensive training and further study, and yet the loss of seven horses in a 3 or 4 day event hardly raised comment on here. Those deaths are eminently preventable given that the event is purely entertainment, and the chance to make money.

The specific post that - yes, at 4a.m. - irritated, did so because it dismissed a suggestion to make the sport, if we must have it, safer by commenting that we'd 'only' have some other sort of horse race. It then went on to give a comparison that had nothing to do with sport or preventable deaths, where, as Bob said, the deaths would be under controlled conditions. Sure - those could be prevented by making the globe consume only vegetables.......

Finally (for the moment) to say that "that's racing" or "That's the way it is" is a cop out.

It need not be thus.

RE: Tragedy

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 22 Mar 2016 09:59:48 GMT

And you haven't included those the public aren't made aware of - those who suffer pulmonary haemorrhages because they've been raced too hard, and either die in the stables, or get sent for slaughter because they're no further use for racing.

Wynne

RE: Tragedy

bob lehner — Tue, 22 Mar 2016 09:36:32 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]I watched Cheltenham every day last week then loaded up a batch of finished lambs for the factory. Mortality rate for the lambs will be 100% - they'll be on a plate for the titillation of human palates this weekend. [/quote]

But hopefully the lambs will be quickly and humanely killed - not subjected to catastrophic fractured limbs/spines/pelvis etc. etc. prior to euthansia?

Personally I find the usual hand-wringing response from trainers/owners 'We really love and care for our horses and it's terrible when they have an accident' a bit trite - when they know perfectly well that a proportion of horses competing in jump races will suffer serious injury and/or death - it's just part of the game.

RE: Tragedy

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 22 Mar 2016 09:36:04 GMT

I can rarely find anything good to say about socialists, but I do praise the Spanish socialists for their attempts to ban bull-fighting.

Wynne

RE: Tragedy

Dagmar Steele — Tue, 22 Mar 2016 09:07:28 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"] well why not race them in a way the risk is not as high as it is at the moment? Wouldn't it be fair to alter the race courses to make the death toll lower?[/quote]

Then there would be no National Hunt racing, just flat racing.

I watched Cheltenham every day last week then loaded up a batch of finished lambs for the factory. Mortality rate for the lambs will be 100% - they'll be on a plate for the titillation of human palates this weekend.

[/quote]

I'd like to play the devil's advocate. And what would be so disastrous about that? As Francisco says, same applies for bull-fighting, I am totally for a ban on bull fighting.

RE: Tragedy

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 22 Mar 2016 08:47:58 GMT

Total agreement with George, Dagmar and Francisco.

Wynne

RE: Tragedy

Clare Tapsfield-Wright — Tue, 22 Mar 2016 08:29:34 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"]

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"] well why not race them in a way the risk is not as high as it is at the moment? Wouldn't it be fair to alter the race courses to make the death toll lower?[/quote]

Then there would be no National Hunt racing, just flat racing.

[/quote] And that just has to qualify as THE most puerile, fatuous response of any that I have read on this site. Pathetic.

[/quote]Not offensive, but rude and dismissive which closes down debate. It was written at 4am though