Operating on Gorillas

RE: Operating on Gorillas

grumpyoldman — Wed, 02 Mar 2016 00:08:43 GMT

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]Ouch. Thanks for that.[/quote]

Sorry , I was thinking of the comments made by a notable Avian Specialist on the advice he often gave to candidates wanting exotics residencies, " which was go away and do some general practice and learn some general basic skills first", advice that was apparently not often taken.

RE: Operating on Gorillas

Marie Kubiak — Sun, 28 Feb 2016 16:50:34 GMT

[quote user="grumpyoldman"]

And career exotics vets with a few exceptions, are not great surgeons.

[/quote]

Ouch. Thanks for that. Pretty much all of us that are used to operating on 15g finches and geckos actually have pretty good surgical skills.

RE: Operating on Gorillas

grumpyoldman — Thu, 25 Feb 2016 18:52:20 GMT

I think gorillas ,particularly have lots of problems with DCM from 15yrs ,its hard to screen them when they are awake ,so they often get human cardiologists in anyway when they are doing anything to them , better to get them up and about as fast as possible afterwards. And career exotics vets with a few exceptions, are not great surgeons.

RE: Operating on Gorillas

Julian Earl — Wed, 24 Feb 2016 23:59:33 GMT

Gillian, No I didn't ring them but I am friends with a certain Niall O'Connell council-member so asked him about it.Is that okay?

RE: Operating on Gorillas

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 24 Feb 2016 19:03:00 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]and yet a zoovet is criticised for wanting support when doing an op that almost no one has done. Lovely.[/quote]

Er, no, no one was criticising the zoo veterinary surgeons.

RE: Operating on Gorillas

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 24 Feb 2016 18:22:14 GMT

The reports I saw- including within the links above- make it clear that the human surgeons were PART of the team.

RE: Operating on Gorillas

Clive Ansell — Wed, 24 Feb 2016 18:05:16 GMT

It would have been nice and good PR for everyone if the media had portrayed this as a joint effort or collaboration between medical and veterinary professions, with each bringing skills and knowledge to the other, with a successful outcome.

RE: Operating on Gorillas

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 24 Feb 2016 17:13:12 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]My reading is that a doctor can do more than a dentist can.[/quote]Well I'm mightily pleased to hear that!

RE: Operating on Gorillas

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 24 Feb 2016 17:01:24 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]I doubt if any human surgeon has done hundreds of gorillas..[/quote]

No, but neither has anyone, seeing as this has only ever been done about 20 times, with only 9 actually recorded.

We see posts all the time where someone who has spayed literally hundreds of dogs gets scared about spaying a skunk.....and yet a zoovet is criticised for wanting support when doing an op that almost no one has done. Lovely.

RE: Operating on Gorillas

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 24 Feb 2016 16:57:36 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

I am told by someone at RCS that: I understand the procedure was assisted by Miss Rowena Sara Killick BVM&S MSc,DZooMed(Mammalian) MRCVS

So that is okay then. Just the BBC being ignorant

[/quote]

Are you serious? You actually rang the RCVS?

Who do you think was doing the darting/anaesthesia FFS?

Bristol zoo has a team of 3 vets plus RVNs working round the clock. (Modern Zoo licensing requirements for this size of collection....it isnt just fire brigade stuff done by the local GP vet anymore). What did you think - that they simply couldn't be arsed doing it?

RE: Operating on Gorillas

Julian Earl — Wed, 24 Feb 2016 16:42:51 GMT

I am told by someone at RCS that: I understand the procedure was assisted by Miss Rowena Sara Killick BVM&S MSc,DZooMed(Mammalian) MRCVS

So that is okay then. Just the BBC being ignorant.

RE: Operating on Gorillas

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 24 Feb 2016 16:02:40 GMT

For those who who are interested in zoovet Rowena Killick's story it can be found:
13mins 40secs in here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07182d5/bbc-points-west-23022016

1hr 11mins in here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b071363d/victoria-derbyshire-23022016

RE: Operating on Gorillas

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 24 Feb 2016 15:42:23 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"] I'd say that getting somebody else in, who has done 100s of these ops, was the responsible thing to do.[/quote]

I doubt if any human surgeon has done hundreds of gorillas..........

RE: Operating on Gorillas

CatherineThomas — Wed, 24 Feb 2016 15:37:44 GMT

I read something saying there was a team of 5 vets and the one doctor who worked together on her. They've got a pretty good team of zoo vets at Bristol so i'm sure they would have been heavily involved in the surgery and care. But they might not get to do caesarians very often as I imagine most of the species they have in the zoo would be much less likely to need intervention than domestic pets or farm animals.

RE: Operating on Gorillas

Julian Earl — Wed, 24 Feb 2016 15:37:15 GMT

I saw this on the BBC yesterday and no mention of veterinary was to be heard. Did the BBC realise they were headlining something that appeared to be illegal?Perhaps RCVS should have a word in their ear?

RE: Operating on Gorillas

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 24 Feb 2016 15:30:12 GMT

Most zoovets these days are 'career zoovets', meaning they haven't really spent a lot of time in practice. They have limited opportunities to do surgery, so although they are obviously competent at basic surgery, they rarely have a broad depth of experience. I'd say that getting somebody else in, who has done 100s of these ops, was the responsible thing to do. Only the same as us referring that CCL rupture..... nobody wants to just 'have a go' with a 50kg rottweiler!

RE: Operating on Gorillas

David Mills — Wed, 24 Feb 2016 10:10:12 GMT

In the press release the vet is quoted - apparently it was she who called in the medics to do the assessment/op.

RE: Operating on Gorillas

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 24 Feb 2016 09:11:10 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]

Some people on an equine vet forum have said that there was a vet closely involved with the surgery, but for some reason the media only reported the medics.

[/quote]

I'm guessing that 'vet operates on animal' isn't considered as newsworthy as 'human surgeon operates on animal'.

RE: Operating on Gorillas

Rob Loxley — Wed, 24 Feb 2016 08:51:39 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]some reason the media only reported the medics[/quote]

I think they just reported Bristol's press release

RE: Operating on Gorillas

Wren — Wed, 24 Feb 2016 08:45:28 GMT

Some people on an equine vet forum have said that there was a vet closely involved with the surgery, but for some reason the media only reported the medics.

RE: Operating on Gorillas

Rob Davis — Tue, 23 Feb 2016 19:26:52 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Rob Davis"]Dentists have special dispensation to treat animals under the direction of a veterinary surgeon,[/quote]

"At the request of", not "under the direction of", to be exact ( )

[/quote]

I knew I should check the wording before I posted!

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]d) the carrying out or performance of any treatment, test or operation by a registered medical practitioner or a registered dentist at the request of a person registered in the register of veterinary surgeons or the supplementary veterinary register;[/quote]

And I'm wrong again.... I was on call last night, that's my excuse....

Does anybody have any more information about this?

RE: Operating on Gorillas

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 23 Feb 2016 19:21:02 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]Dentists have special dispensation to treat animals under the direction of a veterinary surgeon, doctors do not.[/quote]

Veterinary Surgeons act 1966:

(4) Subsection (1) of this section shall not prohibit--
(c) the performance by a registered medical practitioner of an operation on an animal for the purpose of removing an organ or tissue for use in the treatment of human beings;
(d) the carrying out or performance of any treatment, test or operation by a registered medical practitioner or a registered dentist at the request of a person registered in the register of veterinary surgeons or the supplementary veterinary register;

My reading is that a doctor can do more than a dentist can.

RE: Operating on Gorillas

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 23 Feb 2016 19:02:19 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]Dentists have special dispensation to treat animals under the direction of a veterinary surgeon,[/quote]

"At the request of", not "under the direction of", to be exact ( )

[quote user="Peter Ding"]Was anyone else somewhat surprised to hear two doctors rather than vets had been invited to carry out this act of (fairly technically straightforward) veterinary surgery? [/quote]

Yes, i was very surprised. I'd like to know more about this.

RE: Operating on Gorillas

Rob Davis — Tue, 23 Feb 2016 17:22:01 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] once was anaesthetist for an RAF police guard dog with a broken canine tooth while a (human) dentist gave him a gold crown.[/quote]

Dentists have special dispensation to treat animals under the direction of a veterinary surgeon, doctors do not.

RE: Operating on Gorillas

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 23 Feb 2016 11:11:00 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]

I can imagine that the anatomy is closer to a human than other animals that a vet would deal with though?

[/quote]Given gorrilas are herbivores I would think their guts at least would be somewhere between a pig and a rabbit. I once was anaesthetist for an RAF police guard dog with a broken canine tooth while a (human) dentist gave him a gold crown.