Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 01 Feb 2016 18:13:03 GMT

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]

The argument advanced is that the law does not allow suicide....and by allowing "assisted suicide" this brings a legal conflict........so while the judgement was on assisted dying, Francisco was correct to comment on the legal implication of suicide......it is an offence punishable by law!!!!!!!! The question posed was then how does the law get enforced on a suicide victim??????

[/quote]

The answer is in this quote:

"The law provides immunity for those who kill themselves but does not confer a right to suicide. If there is no right to kill yourself, then there is no right to have someone assist you to die or to kill you."

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 01 Feb 2016 11:50:41 GMT

Especially the defence ones.

Wynne

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

Nhombokisheni — Mon, 01 Feb 2016 11:17:18 GMT

Put another way, those that desire to die cannot commit suicide, its illegal......so they are seeking ways to avoid prosecution for suicide by asking someone to be granted the legal right to kill them!!

Look, I don't know much about law.....except rumour that God can't find a lawyer to sue the devil for all he is doing because all the lawyers are in the devil's camp!!!!!

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 01 Feb 2016 10:30:08 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]

Have a read of this:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/there-is-no-defense-euthanasia-is-murder-british-court

[/quote]

so the court says there's no right for one's own suicide right? I wonder if there is deterrent in form of punishment to enforce the respect of this legality. Like there is in others aspects of the law.

[/quote]

This judgement isn't about an individual's right to take their own life, it is about any assistance that someone else provides to allow them to take their own life.

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 28 Jan 2016 08:28:26 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]

Have a read of this:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/there-is-no-defense-euthanasia-is-murder-british-court

[/quote]

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]

How can a court enforce law to a dead person?????which is essentially the scenario when one breaks the law and commits suicide...........time to agree with Martin's tag line!!!!!!!

[/quote]

You obviously didn't get the sarcasm did you?

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

Nhombokisheni — Wed, 27 Jan 2016 21:02:12 GMT

How can a court enforce law to a dead person?????which is essentially the scenario when one breaks the law and commits suicide...........time to agree with Martin's tag line!!!!!!!

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 27 Jan 2016 20:55:41 GMT

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]

Have a read of this:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/there-is-no-defense-euthanasia-is-murder-british-court

[/quote]

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

Nhombokisheni — Wed, 27 Jan 2016 18:53:12 GMT

Have a read of this:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/there-is-no-defense-euthanasia-is-murder-british-court

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 27 Jan 2016 15:52:29 GMT

[quote user="Nhombokisheni"]

Incidentally....Would a specialist in euthanasia be anything different from a murderer????

[/quote]

Yes. Murder has criminal connotation.

Do you call murder the 'executions' in Texas? What about those in Saudi Arabia?

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

Nhombokisheni — Wed, 27 Jan 2016 15:48:56 GMT

The subject of death is taboo where I come from......even when an oldie goes art 100, the family consults a traditional medium to know who did the killing (a witch hunt of sorts).

As the world globalises and cultures mix, its going to be a while yet before we all see eye to eye.....and euthanasia is legalised. While there are many who profess to wanting to die, they are easily out numbered by those who fear death......it is these who prefer the status quo.

Personally I feel there is a higher likelihood of mass extinction given the rapidity of human multiplication compared to voluntary death ever being legalised.

Incidentally....Would a specialist in euthanasia be anything different from a murderer????

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

George Cooper — Wed, 27 Jan 2016 13:58:28 GMT

Fascinating thread, and one that raises issues that are close to my heart and my experiences.

Firstly Hospices are usually funded by on-going public donations, to the point where nothing at all is asked of the patient or their families. Most have extremely active departments that coordinate the efforts of the local community, and in Hereford where my wife spent a month prior to her death, the community almost exclusively concentrates its charitable actions in raising for St Michael's Hospice. When we were using their services nothing, not even phone calls out, nor meals for visitors, nor accommodation for, in our case, me staying to be nearby in a Hospice house Was charged.

This Hospice is now considered to be the global leader in palliative care in all its contexts, and while it has had Lottery funding, the level of support is sufficient to pay for the running of the establishment. In our case I resurrected our old band, and by dint of three capacity concerts raised in excess of £25,000. Such stories are relatively commonplace, and large events like Paint Runs, and the like are held for mass attendance.

in the Hospice the medical care is not driven by blood test results, but by patient needs, and if further 'complications' arise they are dealt with if and when they happen. Very refreshing! And enlightened, in my opinion. The absolute priority was to ensure pain was controlled and that anxiety was settled. Treatment was "to effect". It was the nearest thing to a smooth release from this world, something we all aspire to for ourselves our families and our patients and pets.

Further to comments regarding the Herculean efforts of doctors to rally the collapsed elderly who have no hope of any subsequent quality of life, there exists the facility of a "Living Will" whereby the future patient can specify that they do NOT want saving at all costs if there is no likelihood of a return to normality. Both my old folks had these, and in both cases - 94yo and 89yo - they were invoked, and end of life pain relief, and sedation to alleviate anxiety were administered. In the old girl's case, breathing was difficult (Non-hodgkins....) and that was the priority for the healthcare team.

At present I have an elderly aunt of 95 who elected to stay in a care home. Whilst there she has resolutely refused any kind of intervention for any health matters saying that at her stage in life she "can't be doing with the hassle and aggro!" Even dental visits are scorned. Good on her I say, and as I have Power of Attorney for her health and wealth, when they come and check with me they're instructed to respect her wishes no matter how it offends their heroic tendencies.

Sone one mentioned America. Apparently in some States you can be in receipt of a medication that will end your life at a time to suit you. There was a noticeable case recently with a lass who had brain cancer and NO wishes to suffer the logical end of that. She was only 28 or so, and it created a stir on The Net, as you'd expect. By that, I'm assuming that at least in part, America is ahead of other nations.

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 18:29:36 GMT

I want to die like a cousin of my father's did. She was 80, a widow with 3 children. She was obviously feeling fine, because she spent the morning doing a huge batch of baking, and the afternoon gardening. The woman next door came out, and my aunt invited her in for tea. She put the kettle on, and dropped dead. If that had happened when she was younger, I'd have been sorry, but as it was she'd had a good innings, and went out with no suffering.

The one I felt sorry for was the woman next door. Firstly she had a terrible shock, then she had to phone one of the children - and how do you break news like that tactfully?

We ended up eating the cakes my aunt had baked on the morning of her death at the funeral tea.

Wynne

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

ruths — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 18:19:25 GMT

You all made me go and look at some stuff last night.
Apparently, We spend a fairly low sum on end of life stuff in the UK. It's about £6k comapred with £15k in canada, £13k in Usa or something similar...

I also wondered who funds the hospices... are they all NHS?

Also, more of our dying people end up in hospital to die- shihc seems sad, becuase most people want to die at home or in a hospice.

And, yes, Atul's book brings up the whole issue of talking about death and making sure people know what you want out of death.

Not sure what I'm saying, apart from the bill may well be high, but it's not the highest.

Maybe we can make the bill lower by using hospice care more effectively and errr

I want to die in a nasty champagne accident when I'm really old and have jus spent my last bit of pension on a bottle of fizz -))

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 18:17:59 GMT

I think a lot of people who would like to be in favour of euthanasia (and I'm using the word in it's true dictionary meaning ) don't trust doctors not to turn it into contract killing of the inconvenient. Doctors have a very poor track record where certification is concerned, Quite apart from their disgracefully inaccurate "sick" notes, there's their record on abortion. The Abortion Act doesn't allow abortion on demand, It only allows abortion if the physical or mental health of the mother or baby will be seriously affected by continuing the pregnancy. Doctors routinely grant abortion in demand, We all kmow they do, although that is not what's actually allowed under the Act. I think there's a genuine fear among many people that doctors will be equally lax in their interpretation of a Euthanasia Act

Wynne

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

David Mills — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 17:04:18 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="David Mills"]2ry[/quote]

What's that short for?!

[/quote]

Secondary. It's vet shorthand, sometimes written 2y, 2ndry, 2ry.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]David, what timeframe are you putting on it becoming about state money? Years? Within the decade. Two? Do you think technology has half a chance of solving the problem (i.e. we'll be able, if we want, to live out our last weeks in our own homes, remotely monitored etc.)[/quote]

Unfortunately, I think advances are likely to do the opposite by prolonging quantity of life rather than improving quality. People are living longer, growing organs is round the corner, and cancer treatment is improving fairly rapidly. As Jo said, nature's great euthanasia sweep, pneumonia, is being thwarted by better home insulation and doling out ever-increasing quantities of antibiotics.

Big pharma are now so big that they set the agenda for advances. There is little monetary value in them developing products that will help a few (e.g. new antibiotics), rather the big bucks lie in the big diseases - now that HIV has been tamed, that's cancer, and old age brain diseases where they will make billions if they can crack one of the big diseases.

Quite how bad the situation is can be seen by any trip to a geriatric or stroke ward in a hospital. People with little quality of life being kept alive. It's not (always) the doctors' fault - they are hamstrung, and they are rightly terrified of litigation from guilt-ridden relatives looking to blame someone other than themselves (usually the ones that have been mostly absent for the last few years).

So I can't see it coming around in the next couple of decades in this country.

Interestingly, some European countries will now carry out euthanasia, and some doctors specialise in this very area; most say it is one of the most satisfying things they do for their patients.

The main arguments against it are that it can be hijacked by greedy relatives, or that it becomes a slippery slope where people are bumped off if its easier. Neither have logical credibility, and are easily counter-balanced by effective regulation and monitoring. Other reasons from a religious slant about the sanctity of life are ridiculous in the 21st century.

Whilst I want to see it here, and it will come, I do fear for the Americans. They've no chance.

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

Jo Dyer — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 13:26:48 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

David believes human euthanasia will come in our lifetime (I guess he means in the UK), I agree with him. I think it is already here (mostly).

Will it be really for economic pressures making us unable to care for our elders?

[/quote]

I don't think euthanasia is here, not even close. The first step would be to allow people to die ....and not try to resuscitate those who are clearly at the end of life, or place PEG tubes to feed them, despite their being moribund.

If someone who is 93 and dementing in a care home collapses, why not just put them back to bed, make them comfortable and let nature take its course? (Real example last week - was blue-lighted into hospital for intensive treatment and is now back with no quality of life in the care home; relative of a friend).

My daughter did a carer's job last year while applying for med school. I was struck by her reports of people who very much want to die but who feel they have to struggle on because their offspring cannot bear the thought of death. No-one discusses this side of the story, only the side which says offspring will want to finish them off for material gain!

I also worry about the overuse of antibiotics in very aged people with non-existent immune systems. It strikes me that this is one of the best ways to promote resistance, but the threshold for prescribing is extremely low in these cases. In the old days, I believe pneumonia was known as the 'old person's friend' for carrying off the frail in the winter.

Atul Gawande wrote an excellent book, Being Mortal, on the subject, saying we should have the conversation with people about end of life care and not just assume they all want to struggle on to the bitter end with all interventions known to man.

When people have developed a bit more sense about allowing those with a hopeless prognosis and no quality of life to die, then we may be able to talk about euthanasia with a realistic chance of it happening......

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

Bob Russell — Fri, 22 Jan 2016 11:21:08 GMT

We lost a client to his cancer about a month ago. We also have a semi-retired consultant who works in a local hospice.

After being half ignored then pulled and prodded the client was eventually allowed to go to the hospice. The wife of the dying client was given a big hug by the consultant, was told that they would take care of the husband. They did wonderfully!

Experience of the NHS dreadful and scarring for the family. Hospice care fantastic!

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

Utlendigur — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 19:41:28 GMT

I would like to see a scheme similar to the organ donor scheme, where people can formally record their views on euthanasia well before they get to the end stage of their lives ie before any hints of outside influence on their decision, and have those views respected (whether for or against) unlike living wills which have no real legal force. Having watched both parents die slow protracted deaths in hospital after several years of dementia and other problems, I found the medics determination to prolong existence (not life) at all costs utterly inhumane. My mother had end stage Parkinson's, lewy body dementia, hip fracture, aspiration pneumonia, uti and sepsis - and they were still continuing intensive tx - while neglecting analgesia (just paracetamol until i argued with thm to start morphine) despite her groans of pain.

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

ruths — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 19:34:34 GMT

I am so glad the Liverpool care pathway has been modified. I heard that it was made for hospice care and then became a template for care In Hospitals too and the pathway doesn't translate.

i have to think some more about end of life care and finances.

I missed the deaths of both my adopted mother and birth mother but am reassured that they died with people who loved them at their side.

I would like to hope that as many people as possible have a dignified death with loved ones. I don't know if over medicalising death is appropriate. I suppose we will end up filling out DNR forms that have a price limit on!

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 19:10:19 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]2ry[/quote]

What's that short for?!

[quote user="David Mills"]AG says it will come as a compassionate, humane thing[/quote]

[quote user="David Mills"]I'm saying that it will come because we can't afford to keep the old[/quote]

Well, I defer to your greater knowledge. I didn't know the figures for end of life care, for example.

I think (perhaps naively) that at the moment, the debate is compassionately motivated. Seems to me that those who are against euthanasia are primarily against it because of a fear that it might become financially motivated (not the state, but the heirs!).

I hope very much that it reaches a sensible conclusion (ie allow personal choice about euthanasia) before it becomes about state money.

Perhaps if it were allowed for compassionate reasons now, it would help delay or prevent it ever becoming about state money (in the meantime, other solutions, including technological advances, may overcome the problem).

David, what timeframe are you putting on it becoming about state money? Years? Within the decade. Two? Do you think technology has half a chance of solving the problem (i.e. we'll be able, if we want, to live out our last weeks in our own homes, remotely monitored etc.)

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

Bob Russell — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 18:23:37 GMT

I have no fear of being dead, no great ambition to achieve that status but the bit between being alive and not, frightens the living daylights out of me.

If I could be fairly confident that I had a fair chance of a gentle trip into oblivion, I would be a lot less concerned!

Harold Shipman created a total loss of confidence in the medical profession when it comes to terminal care. His victims did have an easy death but not of their choosing.

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

David Mills — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 18:07:27 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]I don't think there is that much disagreement with what Arlo is saying to be honest. I think what Arlo is saying will come, so those savings will be made no matter what.[/quote]

There is a fundamental disagreement. AG says it will come as a compassionate, humane thing, with 2ry savings. I'm saying that it will come because we can't afford to keep the old, unless they can pay for it; it will not come, at least with parliament/HOL in their current set-up, because of a moral purpose - it will be financial, with 2ry benefits of being humane.

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 17:54:24 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]High time people were legally allowed to make their own decision about the manner of their exit. I think change is coming about in recognition of that, not because of economic pressures.[/quote]

Disagree.

Either people will have to pay for it themselves (like nursing homes, but waaay more expensive - about £10k/week in a NHS hospital) or they/their family can pull the plug.

[/quote]

I don't think there is that much disagreement with what Arlo is saying to be honest. I think what Arlo is saying will come, so those savings will be made no matter what.

[quote user="David Mills"]

One can only wish that such short-sighted fools suffer the agonies and prolongation of an undignified, drawn-out death. That's not me being nasty any more than their current high-handed pronunciations that all life is sacred leads inexorably to great suffering; hardly God's work.

[/quote]

You're absolutely right, but are being nasty.

[quote]

I agree the "work" ethic of a certain section of British society is appalling. This is the consequence of socialist benefit culture. [/quote]

And I'd guess those immigrants don't have a 'socialist' work ethic. No Wynne, many of us are here because the right-wing b*st*rds of our country had made employee law and life not worth living.

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

Hannah Wynne Richards — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 17:32:12 GMT

I agree the "work" ethic of a certain section of British society is appalling. This is the consequence of socialist benefit culture. Remove the benefits - and they'll work. If you add those that are "on the sick" but can still procreate, then there's many many more than are apparent from the unemployment figures.

Wynne

RE: Euthanasia (of humans) will arrive in our lifetimes

David Mills — Thu, 21 Jan 2016 17:30:43 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

I thought that euthanasia had been going on for years, in the sense that doctors would reasonably routinely err on the side of incaution with the morphine when presented with an elderly patient who is suffering and clearly not likely to live for much longer.

If that is true (and I don't have any personal experience), then one would tend to think it is less common these days, as most doctors would surely be more frightened of ending up in court and losing their livelihood.

[/quote]

It has, and I've experienced it. It used to be that as long as a doctor was giving morphine with the intention of analgesia, but they knew, as a side effect, it may/would kill the patient, this was permissible. However there have been recent changes in the Liverpool care pathway which make this more difficult. A common way of seeing someone off these days is to withdraw treatment such as fluids and let them die of dehydration/acidosis (even though they may not be fully conscious) - this can take days and is inhumane.

Disagree. One of the main stumbling blocks, bizarrely in a country where fewer than 3% of the population are practising Christians, are the bishops in the HOL. One can only wish that such short-sighted fools suffer the agonies and prolongation of an undignified, drawn-out death. That's not me being nasty any more than their current high-handed pronunciations that all life is sacred leads inexorably to great suffering; hardly God's work.

On average, the NHS spends most on people in the last 2 weeks of their lives (that is >95% of the population use the NHS very infrequently, and then are splurged on in the last 2w of their lives). The savings calculable from this are in the tens of billions, and as the popualtion lives longer, the country won't be able to afford it. Either people will have to pay for it themselves (like nursing homes, but waaay more expensive - about £10k/week in a NHS hospital) or they/their family can pull the plug.