Think Ahead: Wear a hard hat around horses...?

RE: Think Ahead: Wear a hard hat around horses...?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 19 Jan 2016 09:12:08 GMT

I haven't any experience of the new American standard, so can't really judge, but just one point about so-called improved safety standards for riding hats . I replace my riding hat every few years. It's over 10 years ago now, but at that time a new style of helmet was being promoted - on the grounds of increased safety. It covered more of the skull, especially at the back, and came down well over the ears. There were 2 tiny mesh-covered holes, which were meant to allow one to hear. I tried one on, but didn't buy it - for 2 reasons. It was so heavy, that I felt the risk of a broken neck if I fell off wearing it was > than the risk of a blow to the back of the head when wearing a traditional hat. Even more importantly, sounds were so muffled. that I felt that when riding on the road, the lack of warning of traffic approaching from behind would vastly increase the risk of accident.

This style of helmet has now disapeared, so, probably so many others felt as I did, that it was a commercial failure.

Wynne

RE: Think Ahead: Wear a hard hat around horses...?

bob lehner — Mon, 18 Jan 2016 20:23:41 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Humans adapt their risk-taking behavior on the basis of perceptions of safety[/quote]

Do drivers wearing car seat belts drive more dangerously than those few who still refuse to wear them?

When car seat belt legislation was first being mooted years ago there was a small but rather vociferous minority of drivers who said they would not do anything for road safety, would make people take more risks, were an infringement of civil liberty, would actually cause more injuries to the driver etc. etc.

I don't have any figures to hand but imagine the benefits have far outweighed the downside.

RE: Think Ahead: Wear a hard hat around horses...?

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 18 Jan 2016 19:27:02 GMT

Wearing a Bicycle Helmet Can Increase Risk Taking and Sensation Seeking in Adults

Humans adapt their risk-taking behavior on the basis of perceptions of safety; this risk-compensation phenomenon is typified by people taking increased risks when using protective equipment. Existing studies have looked at people who know they are using safety equipment and have specifically focused on changes in behaviors for which that equipment might reduce risk. Here, we demonstrated that risk taking increases in people who are not explicitly aware they are wearing protective equipment; furthermore, this happens for behaviors that could not be made safer by that equipment. In a controlled study in which a helmet, compared with a baseball cap, was used as the head mount for an eye tracker, participants scored significantly higher on laboratory measures of both risk taking and sensation seeking. This happened despite there being no risk for the helmet to ameliorate and despite it being introduced purely as an eye tracker. The results suggest that unconscious activation of safety-related concepts primes globally increased risk propensity.

http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2016/01/05/0956797615620784.abstract

RE: Think Ahead: Wear a hard hat around horses...?

Jill Butterworth — Mon, 18 Jan 2016 19:18:41 GMT

What an interesting study: the correlation between risk taking, age, gender and perceived vs actual thickness of cranium. There are many subjective variables in civilian life, are elective helmet wearers more risk averse or do they take more risks because they feel safer?

We will only be able to truly study this by analysing the death rate of vets after the introduction of compulsory helmet wearing (an unlikely pipe dream perhaps?). Anecdotal, non statistical or whatever, one can do worse than use common sense to see that a helmet will reduce the impact of a blow to the skull, which concurs with the views of paramedics on the ground who regularly witness the after effects of head trauma.

RE: Think Ahead: Wear a hard hat around horses...?

Jill Butterworth — Mon, 18 Jan 2016 19:17:44 GMT

RE: Think Ahead: Wear a hard hat around horses...?

Robin Grimmer — Mon, 18 Jan 2016 14:34:37 GMT

Michael Woodhouse said: "did you look at the editorial I linked from the BMJ written by 2 doctors? If you look properly at the evidence then there is no clear benefit to wearing them."

Yes I did, and it's by no means clear cut and at times ambiguous.

"case-control studies, many of which have shown that people wearing helmets are less likely to have a head injury."

"Reductions in the rates of admissions to hospital for cycling related head injuries were greater in provinces with helmet legislation"

RE: Think Ahead: Wear a hard hat around horses...?

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 17 Jan 2016 18:43:15 GMT

Jill Butterworth - Snell E2001 is an American, non statutory accreditation. If you look many of the riding helmets available are not accredited to the standard. If you then look into the details the "anvil test" involves 70j of energy - not a fraction of the energy you'd get from a kick.

http://www.smf.org/standards/e2001/e01std

Robin Grimmer - did you look at the editorial I linked from the BMJ written by 2 doctors? If you look properly at the evidence then there is no clear benefit to wearing them. One of the authors is a cyclist and both are epidemiologists. I believe their review of the literature is properly done and the conclusions are fair.

IF we are looking at bringing this in as a rule then we need some decent evidence that it is necessary and proportional. We also need to add in some kind of test that replicates a hole in 1/2" ply wood - 70 joules doesn't. We need to do better than running on a gut instinct that it seems like a good idea. Some random opinion from a paramedic that "if the horse was wearing shoes the person would die" is hardly worth anything. Does a kick with a shoe on transfer more energy than one without? I've been kicked both ways and not noticed a difference.

I'm not against your campaign. I'm not against individual vets wearing riding hats if they want to. The idea of making it compulsory, based on any evidence presented, jumps into the 'health and safety gone mad' camp. I'm sure if there was good evidence (rather than anecdote), it would be on the campaign website.

Simply not convinced.

http://www.smf.org/standards/e2001/e01std

RE: Think Ahead: Wear a hard hat around horses...?

bob lehner — Sun, 17 Jan 2016 17:28:17 GMT

I'm very happy to strongly support the use of protective headgear when working around horses - I've had personal experience of vets and owners sustaining life threatening head injuries. The worst experience of my entire career was seeing a rearing horse come down with both front feet (shod) onto the unprotected cranium of the owner.

I think to some extent it is a generational thing - older equine vets might consider it a bit sissy to wear a helmet - but if younger vets are trained appropriately after a while it will become the norm (relatively few riders now go without a helmet on horseback as compared to years ago -despite the bad example of HM The Queen who always wears just a head scarf!).

Anyone doing equine dentistry with the owner holding the horse and who does not encourage/make them wear a helmet is just asking to be sued in the event of an injury.

Personally I'm glad to see that PSS has now made 'availability and use of PPE' for ambulatory equine vets a requirement in the new standards.

RE: Think Ahead: Wear a hard hat around horses...?

Robin Grimmer — Sun, 17 Jan 2016 16:43:46 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Michael....if there is a 0.1% chance the helmet may help....isn't it worth it?

As far as cycling accidents, the arguments against make me smile. Obviously if you get flattened by a range rover, the helmet will be limited use. But most accidents, in my experience, are cyclists just falling off due to a pothole/failing to unclip/catching a kerb/going too fast round a corner/a wet leaf etc etc. Thus the likeliest injuries are road rash and smacking your head on tarmac. It seems to me that it goes without saying that a helmet will help in these situations....and these cyclists are likely to go home a bit sore, but never need a hospital admission. They wouldn't ever show up on any research statistics......

[/quote]

The argument for not wearing a cycling hemlet is pretty flimsy IMO. The anti-helmet brigade are very vocal. One of their arguments is that when helmet wearing is compulsory by law, the it puts so many people off cycling that more people die from obesity-related illnesses. What poppycock! Ask any A&E doctor, and I'm sure they'll give you a different opinion..

RE: Think Ahead: Wear a hard hat around horses...?

Jill Butterworth — Sun, 17 Jan 2016 16:32:48 GMT

From the BETA Guide to riding hats that you posted

'Snell E2001

This is the newest standard, developed in America by the Snell Institute. It is a higher performance standard which includes all aspects of ASTM and PAS 015 but with a sharper horseshoe anvil (to replicate a horse kick or impact with a sharp surface), higher impacts and an additional hemispherical anvil to represent an uneven but not sharp surface such as a tree, fence or cobbled surface. '

As I understand it (but can't find the reference!) wearing an appropriate safety helmet in any sport confers an 80% chance of survival. The young lady in the photograph had just a small kick to her temple from an unshod horse (see her CT scans). You don't survive bad kicks without protection. The dramatic scar is from the bone flap to remove the haematoma. Paramedics at the scene were fairly sure she would have been killed if the horse was wearing shoes, and it's highly likely that a helmet would have taken the impact and reduced or prevented her injury.

RE: Think Ahead: Wear a hard hat around horses...?

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 17 Jan 2016 15:05:52 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]I'm fairly certain riding hats are tested for this[/quote]

Nope. I checked. See attached for a summary

RE: Think Ahead: Wear a hard hat around horses...?

Kate Richardson — Sun, 17 Jan 2016 14:59:55 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Firstly we'd need to re-write the safety standards and testing for the hats. We don't know if they are protective against kicks.[/quote]

I'm fairly certain riding hats are tested for this- if you fall from a horse then there are multiple things your head could come into contact with, your horses feet being one of them

RE: Think Ahead: Wear a hard hat around horses...?

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 17 Jan 2016 14:20:18 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Michael....if there is a 0.1% chance the helmet may help....isn't it worth it?[/quote]

Firstly we'd need to re-write the safety standards and testing for the hats. We don't know if they are protective against kicks.

Secondly we are seemingly assuming (potentially falsely) that these vets killed by kicks would have been saved by wearing a helmet - we don't know that. What if a kick wearing a helmet causes a deformation or fragmentation and means more head injuries? The advice is to replace them if dropped into a hard surface!

Thirdly - what if the effect of wearing a hat gives a false sense of security and more vets sustain head injuries as a result of taking more risk? I went out for a drive last night to see how bad the snow was (in a 4X4 Landrover), if I drove a Corsa I wouldn't have taken the risk.

RE: Think Ahead: Wear a hard hat around horses...?

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 17 Jan 2016 12:17:10 GMT

Michael....if there is a 0.1% chance the helmet may help....isn't it worth it?

RE: Think Ahead: Wear a hard hat around horses...?

Richard Carter — Sun, 17 Jan 2016 10:14:22 GMT

the top horse vet in South Africa (in about 1990) was killed instantly with a kick to the head going into a horse box so if you think a helmet will work, wear it.

RE: Think Ahead: Wear a hard hat around horses...?

Fable — Sun, 17 Jan 2016 09:11:23 GMT

This is a fantastic campaign. Having personally experienced a head injury at the hooves of a horse I don't think we can ever be too careful. Fortunately my injuries were no where near as severe as those of the lady featured on your link.

Funnily enough, despite my experience, I don't wear a helmet when working around horses, though I do much less horse work in my current job and, like Michael, have few qualms about using chemical restraint. Perhaps it is something we should consider more carefully. Do any equine vets have helmets provided by their employers?

RE: Think Ahead: Wear a hard hat around horses...?

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 19:51:47 GMT

I think its a bit of an over-reaction. I'm in no way belittling the people who've been injured or killed, but to start with do we have any evidence that wearing a riding hat will save lives? The evidence for cycle helmet use is not universally positive - http://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f3817.full?ijkey=I5vHBog6FhaaLzX&keytype=ref

The British and European standard testing of riding helmets doesn't include a simulated kick. They are not tested to protect against such injuries. If we think that head gear is required then it doesn't really seem that a standard riding helmet is fit for this purpose.

I work mainly with large animals (90% of my time). I guess maybe 5% of my time is spent with horses. I've banged my head on crushes - generally when wearing my scanner goggles. I have been kicked many times (am going for surgery to repair a ruptured ligament in my thumb at the end of the month after a kick). I have a low threshold to sedate/twitch/blindfold horses. If I was wearing a helmet am I more likely to put myself in a risky position, whereas now I'd sedate the horse?

I have no problem anybody wearing a helmet if they feel safer. I will often get owner to put helmet on if I am doing teeth - more to give them some protection against the gag. I also get kids to wear helmets if helping (15 year old daughter holding). We just need to think these things through - I'm not routinely wearing head protection for cattle or horse work.

RE: Think Ahead: Wear a hard hat around horses...?

Linda Filshie — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 18:19:37 GMT

I don't work with horses now - but vividly remember having an extremely narrow miss from a narked mare when stabling another horse as a student. The sound as her rear hooves hit the wall inches from the back of my head will stay with me forever. I whole-heartedly support this campaign.